Price for K16 Modified Turbos?
11-10-2005, 04:15 PM
#76
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ok, so all this great science aside... lol
I have great respect for all your guys knowledge, but the thread is getting very muddy for us simple folks..so
Do Kevins Stage 2 turbos and a Upsolute or GIAC Stage 4 chip make 600hp at the crank? with no other mods then exhaust? or not....?
and just for extra.. what is zero clearance, and is it better, and why ?
I have great respect for all your guys knowledge, but the thread is getting very muddy for us simple folks..so
Do Kevins Stage 2 turbos and a Upsolute or GIAC Stage 4 chip make 600hp at the crank? with no other mods then exhaust? or not....?
and just for extra.. what is zero clearance, and is it better, and why ?
11-10-2005, 04:50 PM
#77
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600 at the crank requires tearing your motor apart (for safety/longevity)
and like any mods on any type of engine, if you are trying to get more air into it
you have to let more air through it, hence the exhuast is always done in conjuction with
mods. Exhuast must flow free-er than stock (much).
No, no one has a magic pair of turbos and programming that will give you 600 horsepower,
Not even Kevin, but it sounds like his Stage 2 turbos with GIAC stage 4 programming (as Stephen
at Imagine Auto has confirmed), and a good exhuast system (see other threads), will give you
a very significant performance increase over stock, and would probably be in the 500-540 range
sustained usable horsepower REAL (my estimate only). Many factors not the least of which is what
type of gas you plan on running and what boost levels you are comfortable with. Gee, this is easy
isnt it.
Marty K
and like any mods on any type of engine, if you are trying to get more air into it
you have to let more air through it, hence the exhuast is always done in conjuction with
mods. Exhuast must flow free-er than stock (much).
No, no one has a magic pair of turbos and programming that will give you 600 horsepower,
Not even Kevin, but it sounds like his Stage 2 turbos with GIAC stage 4 programming (as Stephen
at Imagine Auto has confirmed), and a good exhuast system (see other threads), will give you
a very significant performance increase over stock, and would probably be in the 500-540 range
sustained usable horsepower REAL (my estimate only). Many factors not the least of which is what
type of gas you plan on running and what boost levels you are comfortable with. Gee, this is easy
isnt it.
Marty K
11-10-2005, 05:11 PM
#78
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I heard... (isnt that a great way to start a post...)
that the turbo internals were solid up to 600 hp, and reliable . Keeping boost at or below 1.2 bar of course..
You are right marty, I had my numbers wrong.. that combo should yield just under 500hp at wheels.. sorry for adding to the confusion..
that the turbo internals were solid up to 600 hp, and reliable . Keeping boost at or below 1.2 bar of course..
You are right marty, I had my numbers wrong.. that combo should yield just under 500hp at wheels.. sorry for adding to the confusion..
11-10-2005, 06:07 PM
#79
All I know is that my stage 5s outperform my fvd race turbos( k-24)... its my 3rd turbo that has been modded... lots of miles driven- I had both set ups... I prefer stage 5s. Im not comparing in a bad sense- FVD has been really good to me...
11-10-2005, 11:52 PM
#81
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Originally Posted by Signal-9
I heard... (isnt that a great way to start a post...)
that the turbo internals were solid up to 600 hp, and reliable . Keeping boost at or below 1.2 bar of course..
You are right marty, I had my numbers wrong.. that combo should yield just under 500hp at wheels.. sorry for adding to the confusion..
that the turbo internals were solid up to 600 hp, and reliable . Keeping boost at or below 1.2 bar of course..
You are right marty, I had my numbers wrong.. that combo should yield just under 500hp at wheels.. sorry for adding to the confusion..
sustained usable horsepower REAL
Marty,
With all due respect I am not sure how one can combat the hundreds of dynos we have pulled over the years. In fact over 3 years ago we were the first to actually post a 520RWHP and 589RWTQ. Shoot, we were one of the first to actually lay a dyno sheet on the desk and take a picture of it and post it!! Do a search and you will see comparison to CJV’s numbers. We were averaging very closely. At the end of the day while many dispute dynos as fiction (funny how no one ever use to do dynos years ago and gave merit based on their butt dyno) the bottom line is we have proven that 500-600-700 and on is possible at the wheels. Drivability, well all my previous runs created full TQ at 3400. At the shoot out I made 744RWTQ at 3800 and HELD IT until 7400.00. Notice I said TQ, not HP. I don’t care about HP. That is power that is usable. My tires did spin. Again check the archives, hell ask Tom. We were snapping the tires 13 inches with each launch. Once a month I have to rebalance my tires. Why? Because they NEVER stay put on the rim. Again I will state I have dynos I can fax. Hell ask Levino, he saw the dynos himself. The note he made was the massive amount of on going and usable TQ.
I appreciate enthusiasm as much as the next guy, but please give us some real numbers if you are going to dispute all the "other" packages out there. Lets see a dyno on the car. Please no German dyno on others and some 60-130 runs.
I have a very good grasp of these cars. Hell, I would place the bet I am the only one that has as many miles as I do and at this level and have constantly beat the hell out of my car. 210 dyno pulls, endless product test, 8 long trips, daily use, snow mobile, rain stumper, and kid hauler.
These boards have become a high school hall with whose is bigger, better, Billy can beat up jimmy. Yet no one ever meets at the playground. I hardly talk about numbers anymore. It just isn’t that important. I get in my car every morning and hit the key and go to work. I do the same at the end of the day. It does exactly what it was meant to.
11-11-2005, 01:17 AM
#82
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Originally Posted by K24madness
Sharkster,
Never said less lag on K24's vs K16's. I have made it clear that boost threshold is pushed up 500RPM's. What I did say is if you improve the backpressure of the exhaust at the same time you change to K24 based turbos your spoolup would be similar to stock.
It is the delta between exhaust backpressure and TIP that spools the turbos.
Stock backpressure is approx 10 psi
Good exhaust system is 1-3 PSI
When you consider that TIP is approx 29 PSI the delta between stock exhaust is 19 PSI and good aftermarket exhaust is 27-29 PSI. This extra pressure helps make up for the larger turbine and AR of the K24's
These numbers are real close but not exact. I have measure stock 996 exhausts and got between 10-12 PSI. Stephen (imagine auto) has claimed 1 PSI on the FABSPEED exhaust.
PS Great runs on your car!!!
Never said less lag on K24's vs K16's. I have made it clear that boost threshold is pushed up 500RPM's. What I did say is if you improve the backpressure of the exhaust at the same time you change to K24 based turbos your spoolup would be similar to stock.
It is the delta between exhaust backpressure and TIP that spools the turbos.
Stock backpressure is approx 10 psi
Good exhaust system is 1-3 PSI
When you consider that TIP is approx 29 PSI the delta between stock exhaust is 19 PSI and good aftermarket exhaust is 27-29 PSI. This extra pressure helps make up for the larger turbine and AR of the K24's
These numbers are real close but not exact. I have measure stock 996 exhausts and got between 10-12 PSI. Stephen (imagine auto) has claimed 1 PSI on the FABSPEED exhaust.
PS Great runs on your car!!!
I agree with reducing back pressure but I still think that can only help so much. Look at me.. I have as little back pressure as you could ever have (5 inch straight out) and I still have more lag with the larger turbos. Check out the dynos.. same story. Don't get me wrong, I love the power but it comes on later is all...
11-11-2005, 03:08 AM
#83
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Originally Posted by PorschePhD
You are correct. 600 crank is not a problem. We were one of the first ones to open the motor and test after almost 30K of over 525 RWHP. Very little wear.
Marty,
With all due respect I am not sure how one can combat the hundreds of dynos we have pulled over the years. In fact over 3 years ago we were the first to actually post a 520RWHP and 589RWTQ. Shoot, we were one of the first to actually lay a dyno sheet on the desk and take a picture of it and post it!! Do a search and you will see comparison to CJV’s numbers. We were averaging very closely. At the end of the day while many dispute dynos as fiction (funny how no one ever use to do dynos years ago and gave merit based on their butt dyno) the bottom line is we have proven that 500-600-700 and on is possible at the wheels. Drivability, well all my previous runs created full TQ at 3400. At the shoot out I made 744RWTQ at 3800 and HELD IT until 7400.00. Notice I said TQ, not HP. I don’t care about HP. That is power that is usable. My tires did spin. Again check the archives, hell ask Tom. We were snapping the tires 13 inches with each launch. Once a month I have to rebalance my tires. Why? Because they NEVER stay put on the rim. Again I will state I have dynos I can fax. Hell ask Levino, he saw the dynos himself. The note he made was the massive amount of on going and usable TQ.
I appreciate enthusiasm as much as the next guy, but please give us some real numbers if you are going to dispute all the "other" packages out there. Lets see a dyno on the car. Please no German dyno on others and some 60-130 runs.
I have a very good grasp of these cars. Hell, I would place the bet I am the only one that has as many miles as I do and at this level and have constantly beat the hell out of my car. 210 dyno pulls, endless product test, 8 long trips, daily use, snow mobile, rain stumper, and kid hauler.
These boards have become a high school hall with whose is bigger, better, Billy can beat up jimmy. Yet no one ever meets at the playground. I hardly talk about numbers anymore. It just isn’t that important. I get in my car every morning and hit the key and go to work. I do the same at the end of the day. It does exactly what it was meant to.
Marty,
With all due respect I am not sure how one can combat the hundreds of dynos we have pulled over the years. In fact over 3 years ago we were the first to actually post a 520RWHP and 589RWTQ. Shoot, we were one of the first to actually lay a dyno sheet on the desk and take a picture of it and post it!! Do a search and you will see comparison to CJV’s numbers. We were averaging very closely. At the end of the day while many dispute dynos as fiction (funny how no one ever use to do dynos years ago and gave merit based on their butt dyno) the bottom line is we have proven that 500-600-700 and on is possible at the wheels. Drivability, well all my previous runs created full TQ at 3400. At the shoot out I made 744RWTQ at 3800 and HELD IT until 7400.00. Notice I said TQ, not HP. I don’t care about HP. That is power that is usable. My tires did spin. Again check the archives, hell ask Tom. We were snapping the tires 13 inches with each launch. Once a month I have to rebalance my tires. Why? Because they NEVER stay put on the rim. Again I will state I have dynos I can fax. Hell ask Levino, he saw the dynos himself. The note he made was the massive amount of on going and usable TQ.
I appreciate enthusiasm as much as the next guy, but please give us some real numbers if you are going to dispute all the "other" packages out there. Lets see a dyno on the car. Please no German dyno on others and some 60-130 runs.
I have a very good grasp of these cars. Hell, I would place the bet I am the only one that has as many miles as I do and at this level and have constantly beat the hell out of my car. 210 dyno pulls, endless product test, 8 long trips, daily use, snow mobile, rain stumper, and kid hauler.
These boards have become a high school hall with whose is bigger, better, Billy can beat up jimmy. Yet no one ever meets at the playground. I hardly talk about numbers anymore. It just isn’t that important. I get in my car every morning and hit the key and go to work. I do the same at the end of the day. It does exactly what it was meant to.
11-11-2005, 04:22 AM
#85
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Originally Posted by pole position
Please show us that your car makes 680whp/744wtq with pumpgas on a MAHA , no need to go to Germany , there are many in the US , one almost next door to your software gurus shop in SoCal.
11-11-2005, 05:17 AM
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In fact, Pole Position is making a good point. And this is not directed at Stephen at all but at the wider audience, I have no doubt that all these modded cars are really fast and have some VERY serious HP, but if nothing else, the trap speeds seen during the shootout and how they compared to an off-the-shelf FVD 550kit are not showing those numbers. A 60-130mph run can give an idea but not be conclusive either, a rolling 20-130mph maybe more so, before aerodynamics penalize seriously the different cars, and excluding driver launching skills.
The MAHA run has to be done in the proper way too.
Unless a customer independently has the curiosity to find out on his own, we are not likely to see them.
I know Kevin is going to benchmark his new dyno vs. established tuners kit claims (FVD, RUF etc..) this is the right way to go.
The MAHA run has to be done in the proper way too.
Unless a customer independently has the curiosity to find out on his own, we are not likely to see them.
I know Kevin is going to benchmark his new dyno vs. established tuners kit claims (FVD, RUF etc..) this is the right way to go.
11-11-2005, 06:05 AM
#87
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Originally Posted by PorschePhD
well all my previous runs created full TQ at 3400. At the shoot out I made 744RWTQ at 3800 and HELD IT until 7400.00. Notice I said TQ, not HP. I don’t care about HP. That is power that is usable.
Originally Posted by PorschePhD
These boards have become a high school hall with whose is bigger, better, Billy can beat up jimmy. Yet no one ever meets at the playground. I hardly talk about numbers anymore. It just isn’t that important. I get in my car every morning and hit the key and go to work. I do the same at the end of the day. It does exactly what it was meant to.
Unfortunately when ALL the power claims are from dubious chassis dynos then it is hard to relate to them.
Get one of these 700FWHP cars on a Maha, take the bumper off and hold it under load at 6000rpm - that is how Manthey does it and it is the closest way to replicate Porsche engine dyno measured hp using a chassis dyno.
11-11-2005, 06:33 AM
#88
Im no tuner nor engineer... Im speaking form my experience- after thousands of dollars spent on mods.... and well over 100K miles between 3 TTs-i have real facts. I actaully dont care what my car dynos.... as long as do well in 1/4 mile... thats my dyno. Some guys here are so consumed with graphs and dyno sheets... as if it was the nation science fair.
when I beat a gsx-r 1000 on the highway... that was my DYNO sheet.
dynos- hmm one race car team owner told me... "what #s would you like to see and Ill make it happen".
just my humble opinion, not intended to **** anyone off.
when I beat a gsx-r 1000 on the highway... that was my DYNO sheet.
dynos- hmm one race car team owner told me... "what #s would you like to see and Ill make it happen".
just my humble opinion, not intended to **** anyone off.
Last edited by markski; 11-11-2005 at 07:38 AM.
11-11-2005, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by TB993tt
You are saying you held 744RWTQ at 7400rpm ? - that's 1048hp @ 7400rpm - don't think so
.
.
11-11-2005, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by sharkster
I was there. Excellence was there... This was REAR wheel... and not ALL wheel so your correction factor is off by a good few %....
I'm talking simple formulae 744lb/ft @ 7400rpm = 1048hp @ 7400rpmThis is a joke right ?