Jean

Spot-on. It hurts just to look at your car on the bench. These torque numbers will translate to matching acceleration numbers on the road. Also, no correction factors or estimates, the dyno will give you the real FWHP.
I definitely highly respect all the guys who went to the shootout rather than bench racing or speculating, but IMO the numbers obtained on the dyno say it all when compared to the acceleration runs. It is just a different approach to reading hp I guess.

PorschePhD

I knew this would pull everyone out of the woodwork. This is great reading while I sit here drinking my coffee. You guys crack me up. Why?

Ok, first of all how many of you actually work on cars? Not professional but even turn a wrench? How many became a professional because they got screwed by all the BS in the magazines and started their own company? I know I have and that is what I did. How many have tuned EFI systems and built from scratch stand alone injection and conversions. Turbo charged, superchgarged and even blown their own stuff up to see how far they could go? Every day there are threads of my buddy had a ride in his uncles brothers car and the tires were spinning in the rim. It was faster than the space shuttle, my hair fell out of my head it was so fast, I had to see a plastic surgeon put my eyeballs back in my skull it was so fast? Everyday this comes up. Where is the support in proof? These poster don’t show dynos, don’t give info and they catch little slack. I post something and the world is coming to an end. All the experts come out. Again those that are truly in the know of these motors…what is this?? or this For the record out of the 2300 something post I have 95% is helping, not bragging about my dyno or how fast my car is. It is more like can I do rods without splitting the case. How about some of you. Are you helping others or just combating what your have read or heard?

Look, 5-10 years ago no one showed dynos. There was not the internet as we know it today and certainly not this new term “tuner” Few questioned the claims. When they did few started getting dynos. I am not ashamed that I tuned cars on the street for years. Poor man’s dyno method, you know what that is? I was doing stand alone when almost no one even knew what the hell that was. So now the masses want a dyno sheet. Great, so we produce that, now that dyno isn’t good enough, fine go to another dyno, nope that is not good enough either, you have to have a Maha. Well folks, (TB you and I have had this conversation) do your research because I do believe that on the list of approved dynos by your beloved Gunther is a Mustang. So at the end of the day it won’t matter what dyno I show, engine or chassis, Mustang or Maha. Someone will still find away to say it is BS. That’s ok. At least be consistent with everyone eh? I believe that I am the only engine builder/tuner up there that stays on the boards and actually helps. I have invited anyone that wants proof to visit my shop and we will put a car on my dyno and run any test you want. Instead of taking swipes at dyno sheets, which still almost NO ONE post just debates I say come on up. Levino did. He drove from Canada to see if we were real. Oops, we were.

First of all I never said those numbers were on 91. Did I? Second of all anyone that wants the sheets please call the dyno at the speedway in Vegas and request them to fax. I will approve that. Second, still in doubt this is a big conspiracy? Call or email Pete Stout to fax or release his copies. I too will approve that. For now, here are some pump files on our AWD Mustang.



Lets talk about cars that make real HP. For those out there I want to hear what it is like on a normal month of driving 3500 miles on average. What do I mean? Just how is the car? How does it drive. See there are some very strange characteristics of these cars that I know they have making silly HP. You have to have and drive it to know. Unless you actually are in the know you would haven’t a clue what I am talking about. For example. I also like bikes. I have had many. So when someone tells me they were rounding the bend at 170 and it was like butter, well ummm, BS. The wall would have been sucking you in and you would have been fighting it as the TQ steer was trying to shove you the opposite direction. These are not things you could know unless you actually have done it. Another favorite of mine. I have been 185 in my 930. Really? Ok, what was that like? Oh, like silk. BUZZZ wrong answer. The velvet seals unless brand new and even then will blow and the sunroof will start to push down. You think you are going to die until one realizes what is going on. Often three hands are needed. Two for the steering wheel and one to hold your, um..you get the point. Again, my point? Where are these stories. I mentioned that I have to balance my tires once a month because they get out of balance. That is another example, what about you? What stores about the TT and real HP can you share?

Look, there are a million kits out there. A million ads and a million wantabe tuners. I have owned an awful lot of Porsche Turbos and Porsche in general. Hell the last car count was something like 89 cars in all I have owned. I need not to convince any of you I am real. Geez. Jean knows I am, Kevin, Levino, and any other person that has posted to this board, the PCA or visited my shop. My doors are always open, come on down. In fact if nothing else there are 13 930s here and 4 TTs, a few other misc Porsches as well. You would enjoy the eye candy even if you didn’t like my numbers.

Time for my coffee now.

Woodster

Stephen, (P-Doc),
I respect you as one of the most knowledgable tuners and best engine builders in the Country! I am not questioning your abilities, they speak for
themselves, my friends have been to your shop and you run a very good
shop!! The fact that you went to the shootout speaks volumes towards
you and your business. I have read the dyno numbers 50 times from that
day and like TB and Jean are saying, they dont match the power to the
pavement I.E. quartermile trap speeds etc.
I love torque, (that is why I like my underrated PSI 480 kit), my car is a stump
puller in the low rpms and of course gets anemic over 5550 rpms due to
its K-16's. (that I will be changing ).
It appears that the numbers that the Europeans use (from Maha dynos, and
engine dynos) do not correlate very well with "our dyno numbers" on this side
of the pond . I believe all of your kits offer significant horsepower
and torque!, just question the validity of some of the outrageously high #'s
that are claimed, thats all. Next shootout (we need another on badly),
lets also propose a 100-200 kilometer run and maybe a 200-300.
btw (I got my parts yesterday that I ordered from you.)
Marty

PorschePhD

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate that.

Nope it doesn't, but staging early and a 60 ft as bad as they were what would you expect??

Again, lots of claims out there with no proof. I offer proof all the time. Funny, I have been building stupid power in 930s for years. No one questions those dynos sheets.

Am I making my own sheets down here? Um, not. Heck we have a 91 GTI that makes 320WHP. Yes, 320HP to the wheels.

Oak

oh snap. exhuberant. european tuners use larger horses.

sharkster

What about the midget shetland ponies or those Portuguese guys?

Woodster

Yesterday, I had my 996TT going 155 mph indicated and I had the sunroof "tipped up"
when I got done with my run, there was a rubber moulding about 2.5' long that came into
the cabin. I could not figure out exactly where it came from? it has a crease in it so it
obviously fits onto something?
My old (87) 930 was terrifying over 150 !
My 91 turbo (1.1 bar and headers) was interesting (scary) at 170 indicated !
My 993TT was fairly stable @ 175 indicated (other than the "front bobbing")
I have just begun working on my own Porsches: I have exchanged out my exhuast (twice) on
my 996TT (Loud then switched to quiet). I started to attemp plugs on my own and deemed
it too difficult with the tools I had (like trying to get at a couple of the coil packs on the
passenger side without a long socket allen wrench with the special head on it!).
I will attempt my own diverter valves, and shift kit i just got from I/A, the ECU was
simple, I may or may not attempt different turbos in the spring. I am trying to learn,
and I feel much more involved with my car as a result of it.
MK

Jean

Great post Stephen.
You certainly are a category on your own because of your broad experience, and the support you provide to this community is outstanding. What I really do appreciate is that the dyno charts that you post are of your own build, not some generic chart from a package developped thousands of miles away and bolted on a car. There are "bolt-on" tuners and "build" tuners.

Hey, I have opened a Porsche engine before, I could not put it back together though, but that is a different story and It did take me one full year to dismantle completely my car to the ground including cutting the roof and rebuilt it myself, but that worked !! Almost had to quit my job in the meantime.

As far as the numbers seen in acceleration and the torque numbers stated, that, I choose to have a different opinion, the majority of this forum is US based, so the numbers are comparable between the US users anyway.

I just want to clarify that this is not a US/European standard thing or disagreement, both use the same dynos (Mustang, Dynojet, Dynapck, Maha etc..), but the European ones we bench against are the best and most race proven, which are RS Tuning and Manthey and very few others, and those have very stringent methods, that do yield the same as factory numbers, based on tests on GT2 and GT3s. On the other hand we have seen European tuners posting here (not 996 forum) unrealsitic numbers that also don't match performance at all, so it is a worldwide flu!!

The good thing about all this is that we got you to chime in and talk about real life experiences and drives rather than answering intake and CEL questions
Cheers.
Jean

Oak

this one Potuguese tuner told me, it doesn't matter what you say he's done all the the work and hes' still the king of tuners. he also uses shetlands as a measuring stick.

sharkster

Bah... I'm going to go run my car again this weekend.. Hopefully on the way to the track I can do the 60-130 thing for Jean and you guys... If I go to Jail though, I'm calling you guys... Jean any idea on what to do with mine? Just punch it at 50 or something?

TB993tt

PhD
Your contention that you have 744lb/ft at the rear wheels or 1012NM to me is frankly ridiculous, how much is that going to be at the crank using the favoured methods 1100NM ? - I don't doubt you are reporting what you see, but this is not comparable with what Porsche would find on their engine brake with your motor.
Gunther is actually NOT one of my idols, he can do Motronic 5.2 twin plug on a 993tt which puts him in a rare league, but believe it or not he has inflated numbers also in the past - checkout the 600hp Lotec 993tt which struggled 0-200kph in 12secs - try 520hp more like ! Some of the claims they are making at Sportec where he is involved are way inflated IMO.
However, I would love for you to spend an afternoon with him and a Maha and watch how he plays with the Motronic with a fully loaded motor - it will become apparent very quickly how valid your ~1000NM is.
I am guessing this isn't aimed at me - we have the autobahn on this side of the Atlantic which breeds people like Stummel who finds 6th gear acceleration on an RS Tuning 525 hp750NM 996GT2 pedestrian thats acceleration over 170mph - which is something he does daily . My pathetic 540 flywheel lb/ft twists the car when it comes on and slips the clutch (latest 996GT2 sintered/organic disc) if its not used in the right way.

I enjoy the debates here and your contributions are much appreciated and I'm glad you continue to engage - your ability to build a strong 911 motor is not in question it is only in the measurement where we differ

Jean

Sharky, take it on a sharp downward slope j/k You have quick shifts on the tip therefore take advantage of your max torque and start at high revs, unlike our (real ) cars that are seriously penalized by shifts, and we are better off starting in lag territory by the time it picks up steam in the same gear..
You have to try a couple of different runs. I started at 50 in 4th. I believe and nailed it, nothing happened until boost showed up!.

sharkster

Haha good one! I'll try to find what we here call at least a "red" or "black" ski slope! My shifts are interesting... if you watch the video again at the drap strip you can see my first to second is pretty quick. Second to third is decent but third to fourth is ****ty. I do it manually and I still can't figure out why or how that 3rd to 4th is so sloppy.

**** I know what you mean by starting in 4th and then nailing it.. My friend with a 900rwhp Supra and I played a little joke on ourselves. We started in 6th (for him) and 5th for me... at 2000 rpms at 70mph and nailed it. I think Xmas and my birthday passed before either of us got any boost!

PorschePhD

Nope not at all since you have that wonderful stretch of road. We do not which is a shame, it is geared to people that use it to impress the masses rather than spend time at the track, strip or...um other

I know about steady state tuning. That is what I do TB. Steady state instead of sweeps. So under load, under boost and holding it is how I do it.

Let me pose this to you. Have you ever heard of a TT shearing the flywheel bolts out of the crank? What might cause that? I can tell you because after about 45 minutes at Heartlandpark I ripped my bolts out of the crank and had to trailer home. First time in 3 years I couldn't drive it because something broke. Now, those are the types of things one would expect. Beat the hell out of my crank as well. Don't believe it. Look it up in the PCA newsletters. LOL, I was pissed. Glad it was just that as the sound on the track you would have thought the motor was gone. Is it trackable, not really. It is too much but I enjoy giving my self vertigo. Nevertheless the fact stands, I sheared the flywheel bolts clear off the motor.

In regards to numbers, I don't know what to tell you. My dyno places the baselines about what Porsche claims on all cars. At the end of the day some others don't. I use a baseline for gains anyway.

sharkster

Stephen pour me a cup of coffee dammit! I need one today! I'm nervous about going to the track...