Les Quam

MDS, I quite agree. And the thing Bragg Smith does that no other school I know of is, that they have radio's in each car so the instructor can immediately correct your mistake, at Skip Barber, Daly , Bondurant you must wait till the end of the session to be told about your mistakes. At Bragg Smith you hear over the radio and can immediately make adjustments. And I am a huge fan of Skip Barber I went to their school and did several seasons in their race series and have nothing but positive things to say. But Rupert's school is perfect for guys with cars like ours who want to learn and possibly use the info to save your life someday. And spending three days with Rupert is an experience in itself. He simply does not promote his school like others do he seems quite content with word of mouth. And more seat time possibly than any other school also. I wish he had a third level or race series.

Les Quam

Watt, Rupert has two levels once you go through level one let me know and I will do level two again with you. If you get a few friends and book a time out of season he will make you a smokin deal. I take level two as often as I can its all driving at speeds as fast as you can go. The instructors start and if you can keep up they will go as fast as they possibly can. Also if you bring your car have Rupe drive it with you as a passenger to experience how a seasoned pro gets around a track. He really has a ton of talent. I remember when I first spoke to him about his school and told him I had been through Skip Barber and Daly, so why should I have to start at his beginner level. Well we got in a car and he gave me a few of his drills which I failed and I enrolled right their in level one and was amazed at all I learned. But in any event if you bring friends he will negotiate. Bring Colm to level one and when you guys are ready for level two I will get us a killer deal to try to make up for my CGT fiasco. Heck if I know Rupe he will tell me I have been away so long he might want me to do one all over again. I will also bring my shifter Kart out for you guys to drive if you want.

Les Quam

Watt, if prices plummet on the CGT like you think you will find me plummeting off a tall building.

PogueMoHone

Watt/Les,

On the CGT I've heard the (rumor) final production numbers could be well shy of 1500, due to falling demand in Europe.

I like to hear more about the Bragg Smith school, I'd like to do it. Either first week in Dec or second week in Feb would suit me well. i'm in Australia and New Zealand in January for summer vacation.

ADOGNY

Are there any schools of this nature on the East Coast? I would love to learn more from some real pro's...

Les Quam

Colm, first of all congratulations on summering in New Zealand talk about living life to the fullest! could you elaborate on Cgt falling demand because it seems to me that american allocations are filling quite well, what is happening in Europe?

Les Quam

adogny , Skip Barber is in conn. at Lime rock. They have programs for all levels and needs Skip Barber is really the leader in the industry. Try skipbarber .com for more info.

PogueMoHone

Europe: A weak economy!

mds

Quality seems to vary with the larger schools due to the communication skills of the individual instructors, their work schedules and turnover. This is especially true with Skip Barber, in my experience. Panoz at Road Atlanta is definitely worth considering. Bragg-Smith stands alone however in the aspects mentioned in the above posts.

But what ever you do be sure to read the book "Going Faster" from Skip Barber. There is nothing that comes close to this book.

Adrian

Gentlemen,
First let me point out I am not a GT-2 or GT-3 owner. I have driven them including an enhanced version of the GT-2, normal ones (if you can call the GT-2 normal) and a few different GT-3s.
However I do have a little bit of knowledge on these PCCBs and the issues facing you all.
I can assure you that the technical people at PAG, engineering and after sales Technik are working on the problem. In fact they I happen to know that at least one department is working VERY hard on the problem.
Not that this is any comfort really if you have not been officially informed.
There are a couple of other points which may help or not depending upon your point of view.
There are technical people at PAG who take their job very seriously. They do read rennlist by the way. They do react internally to such problems. However company policy does not allow them to say anything directly to anyone.
Then there are the sales and marketing people. The image merchants as I call them. They are the same in any company in any industry.
PCNA is nothing more that a vehicle distributor/importer, sales and marketing machine. You are getting typical sales and marketing language.
If you go back to the very early days of PCCB testing and read the reports by the PAG technical people (one was published in the international edition of Christophorus many moons ago) they clearly say in their 240 kph to 0 kph tests that the PCCB system was no better in braking distance than the steel brakes system. The only thing they say is that they expect the brake fade to be less. I can dig this article out and give you a reference if anyone is interested.
In later sales and marketing material it is clearly stated that these PCCB rotors will last forever.
A fellow Rennlister who shall remain nameless has been involved in some fairly deep way with PCCB and carbon brakes systems and PAG. He identified serious short comings with the brake pads used with the PCCB. He was discussing this with me a long time ago. It certainly appears from this thread and others that nobody listened to him either. This person developed his own braking system for his 911.
I have no idea where this will end up but I certainly thank those who have raised their concerns, direct experience issues and the problems with PCCB rotors. You have all clearly identified something which most people do not think about nowadays. "Cost of ownership". It is one thing to be able to afford to purchase GT-2s etc but you also have to be able to absorb the costs of running them.
You guys who are paying the price must keep up the pressure on PCNA and PAG and I am sure there will be a solution of sorts. No let up because even though they do not admit it they will try and fix it.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

ADOGNY

Well said and I agree with the cost of ownership - I said speed costs money and all of us here know that. It has become clear that NO PADS can handle the heat of the ceramics and they all fail. Drivers not recognizing this properly are in turn most likely destroying their rotors. This does not suggest the system does not perform - remember the main advantage here was the unsprung weight and it does perform in that area.

I still think most of you should work on your relationships with your dealership. Keep the heat on PNCA as Adrian said, but your dealer can help you in the meantime. If your current one gives you a problem, go to another and work that angle. Good luck and let's hope a new pad is around the corner to resolve this.

1AS

Adgony, I think the problem is that the system does not perform. If you care most about unsprung weight and not about repeated hard stopping, why not just use smaller steel discs? Braking requires heat dissipation. PCCB's appear disadvantaged by their low mass and instead are consumed by the process of repetitive hard braking. It has all the appearances of a major conceptual, design, and/or manufacture screw-up. Porsche should just own up to it. Right now, it's kind of like our former president arguing the meaning of "is". This issue is pretty clear, and I don't think people who paid lots of hard cash should be reduced to hoping their dealer relationship is good. That's what warranties and contracts are all about. AS

0396

Posted by

ADOGNY



"Keep the heat on PNCA as Adrian said, but your dealer can help you in the meantime. If your current one gives you a problem, go to another and work that angle."



Adogny,

Been there done that.....why do you think I went up the channel?

Bottom line: Profits and less Customer Commitment.

ADOGNY

I feel for you guys.. I though the ceramic's DID work as well as steel, but did not work any better. If they came out with a pad that could handle the extra heat and not self destruct as posted before, would you guys be happy if they could brake as well only as steel (not better), but saved the 40lbs in weight?

1AS

I thought the disc absorbed most of the braking heat, not the pad. Isn't that the reason for larger brakes like Brembo's? Is it really likely that better pads can resolve the problem, since repeatedly stopping a 3000 lb. car from high speeds will result in more heat than pads can ultimately dissipate? In the end, the solution more likely will require better discs, at least discs better than delivered with existent cars, and very likely improved heat dissipation methodology, including ducts. As a non-expert, this is merely conjecture, but isn't it more likely that pads which don't allow heat build-up will be required to spare the existent discs- and that means pads that stop less-well? This ignores Porsche's earlier claims for better braking and long disc life- initially stated that the discs would last "the life of the car". Since I don't have ceramics (luckily unavailable tho promised at the time of order) my concerns aren't so much about the discs as Porsche's newly stated warranty terms which apparantly now requires legal speeds and road use. Adgony, considering your earlier posts, I'm surprised that doesn't concern you as well. AS