PCCB Arbitration Results
11-12-2003, 01:01 AM
#31
Adogny. I agree with you in principle but in this case it is hard for me not to compare with my previous car, a 996TT with steel brakes:
996TT: about 30 track days on the same rotors. Need to change pads every 3-4 days. Also 24000 street miles.
GT2: 2h of track time and 4000 miles. Front "race" pads bought for the occasion disintegrated. Dealer informally tells me to get steel rotors if I track the car again.
If I really abuse the car, I'll pay for what I break. But in this case, the brakes are weak. My expectation is for Porsche to provide me with steel rotors at no charge or at least a large discount.
AW
996TT: about 30 track days on the same rotors. Need to change pads every 3-4 days. Also 24000 street miles.
GT2: 2h of track time and 4000 miles. Front "race" pads bought for the occasion disintegrated. Dealer informally tells me to get steel rotors if I track the car again.
If I really abuse the car, I'll pay for what I break. But in this case, the brakes are weak. My expectation is for Porsche to provide me with steel rotors at no charge or at least a large discount.
AW
11-12-2003, 01:11 AM
#32
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AW - agree. FREE is what we should see.
I think the whole system needs to be changed out to the steel system, including hubs and calipers. There is a difference in the two systems, there is a reason why the calipers are mounted at different angles when one compares the Red to Yellow caliper.
I think the whole system needs to be changed out to the steel system, including hubs and calipers. There is a difference in the two systems, there is a reason why the calipers are mounted at different angles when one compares the Red to Yellow caliper.
11-12-2003, 01:19 AM
#33
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From a post on roadfly.org just a few minutes.
Gee Porsche look at how quickly everyone knows of the problem!
***************************************************************
seem far from positive! further, the csl is billed as a track car and porsche warns of 1500 miles worth of track usage for the ceramics. 1500 miles later it's about $20k time, and brake fade and problems with heat have been mentioned as attributes of porsche's ceramics. here is a post from one of the several unsatifieds:
Mark GT2
User
Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 12
Another PCCB story
I apologize for the lengthy posting……
I wanted to share this with anyone considering PCCB. I had the rare opportunity of testing 2 cars side by side (a 2002 GT2 with PCCB and stock pads as well as the green race pads against a 2001 Twin Turbo with stock brakes except for pagid orange pads. I don’t profess to have any mechanical knowledge – but I believe that I have some common sense and I pursued this issue in a proper way.
Purchased the GT2 new on August 26, 2002
When I purchased my GT2 I fully had intentions to use the car on both the street and for Driver’s Education classes (on the track). The reason I purchased the GT2 is because, at that time, it was advertised as THE hottest street legal car Porsche had ever built. A large drawing factor was that this car was equipped with the new Ceramic Composite Brakes (PCCB). All the advertisements I read stated that the brakes would never wear out, would last the life of the car, would never “fade”, that they weighed less, stopped faster, etc. I was previously unable to get Ceramic Brakes with our Turbo because, even though it was listed as an option, we were told that “they were not available on the Turbo”. I soon learned that the only thing that was true about these PCCB brakes was that they weighed less.
In October of 2002 I took the car to Watkins Glen for a Driver’s Education event. I brought the GT2 and our 2001 Twin Turbo and I was looking forward to testing it out. While going around the track I noticed that with the GT2 there was a slight brake fade on a couple of the turns. Because the weather was cold I thought perhaps the brakes had not warmed up enough. After being sure that the brakes were hot I was going down the back strait, hit my brakes hard for the chicane turn, and actually shot past the turn and into a cone because the brakes did not work – there was significant brake fade. (The cone put some scratches on the car and it cost me $800 to refinish it). Before I left the Glen I wanted to try the same thing again, as a carefully planned test, and again I went straight past the chicane turn because the brakes failed again (however, I anticipated the failure and didn’t hit any cones this time).
When I got back home I started researching this issue. I didn’t know what the cause was – and I didn’t know who to talk to. The Porsche dealership said there were no issues with the brakes what-so-ever and all the materials I read said how great the brakes were. I had a feeling that I had become a guinea pig and that I was one of the first people to really test out these brakes. So I contacted a number of senior instructors in our club and they gave me many suggestions on who to contact.
After numerous call I finally was directed to call Andreas Boehm (Pagid Motorsports Race Engineering Support) and he said that “Although Pagid is the OE brake pad supplier for the GT2’s Ceramic brake we are not authorized for the time being to give any recommendations about the PCCB brake”. Andreas said that I should speak with Alwin Springer (Porsche Motor Sports) or Eric Bloss.
*********************************************************
February 2003 I sent this note to Alwin Springer of Porsche Motor Sports
"I recently purchased a new 2002 GT2 and the car is used almost exclusively for track events I've noticed that the stock pads did not work well on the track and I’m trying to resolve this issue. The GT2 has the ceramic brakes and is totally stock except for hoosier tires.
While driving the car at Watkins Glen (the weather was about 40 degrees this past
October) at the end of the back strait I would hit the brakes hard (going about 160-165 mph) and the ABS did not kick in.....the tires did not lock up.....and I just continued rolling forward...slowing down....but not very fast (it was as if the breaks had not been warm). I should note that I had run a few laps to warm up the brakes before doing this.
I then took my 2001 twin turbo out to the same spot, at about the same speed, and it stopped on a dime - everytime (the turbo has pagid orange pads but everything else is stock).
Any suggestions? Any pads for this application? I’m hoping that I won’t have to replace the entire brake system to achieve proper performance."
Note: Alwin called me back and informed me that the brakes DID NOT work well when they were heated up. He also told me that Porsche had just released 2 other types of brake pads for the car to try and resolve this problem… so now there were 3 types (street pad, sport pad, and race pad – I had been using the sport pad)
*********************************************************
This was quite a surprise to me but after learning about the “new” race pads I immediately ordered a set.
After a couple of DE events, with the new green race pads, I can honestly report that my 2001 Turbo will still stop more consistently and faster than the GT2. I verified this with a number of instructors who also drove both of our cars.
In August of 2003 I was at Watkins Glen – with brand new green “race” pads on the GT2 and new pagid orange pads on the Turbo. Both cars were driven about the same amount of time and at the same levels of speed. When we pulled the tires to check the pads the Turbo had almost 2/3 of the material left – but the GT2 had worn down to shreds of pad material. Not only had the GT2 pads worn down completely – but we noticed that the rotors were becoming pitted and ceramic material was “flaking” out of the rotor. At this point I didn’t want to drive the car any longer because I was concerned that the rotor could potentially shatter (being ceramic).
After returning from the Glen in August we took the car to Brandywine Porsche to get the rotors replaced – assuming that warranty or common sense would apply here – (having only 1700 miles on the vehicle from new) – but the service manager said that since I had taken it to the track it would not be covered. They then proposed that I get the 2 (not four) front rotors and pads replaced at a cost of $17,940.00 (and I have the quote).
After some recent browsing through Rennteam.com (Porsche technical discussion forum) I found this remark posted on June 11, 2003 in regards to PCCB performance – although I can’t verify if this is correct – it sounds to be true.
*********************************************************
Rennteam.com June 11, 2003
“Here's PMNA's answer:
The PCCB brakes are suitable for race track usage, but you have to change
the pads to PAGID P50-RS14 (green). These pads are available from PMNA.
Please contact Phoebe in the parts department directly.
The estimated lifetime of the PCCB rotors is about 1500 miles. Please check
the rotors and pads periodically.”
(1500 MILES!!!!!!! Not the 185,000 miles that they listed in Christophorus Magazine, not the “allow a brake disc to last as long as the car itself” as listed in Porsche’s literature about PCCB. Obviously I, and a few select other individuals, learned this well after we had purchased our cars.)
**********************************************************
Here are some quotes about the brakes that I read.
**********************************************************
Autoweek, July 10, 2002.
"The new Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes were only slightly less awe-inspiring, bringing the GT2 from 60 mph to a stop in 114 feet. Had this been any other car we would have enthused about that figure, but in the rarified air of this supercar we were hoping for a sub-100-foot figure. The Z06 still holds the record at 105 feet from 60, followed by the BMW Z8 and 911 Turbo at 109 and 110 feet, respectively."
(As illustrated here in the tests they performed – the very expensive Ceramic Brakes did not stop the lighter GT2 as quickly as the heavier less expensive Turbo brakes).
**********************************************************
Porsche Panorama, April 2001
"In use, these are brakes with no sense of humor, and somewhere in the owner’s manual it better say “don’t put your foot on the brakes unless you look in the rear view mirror first.” There might also need to be a word about having enough air in your lungs to go without breathing for a while during operation of the ceramic seizers. They are nevertheless quite linear and controllable, with sometimes a little pad squeak, but surprising little dust. They are reported to be very durable – as in forever – but be prepared to buy pads a bit more often."
(“very durable – as in forever” Since when is 1700 miles “forever”).
**********************************************************
Porsche Christophorus Magazine April/May 2001
"In the test program, the ceramic disks and Brembo calipers have withstood twenty such hard braking cycles from 250 km/h (155 mph) to 100 km/h (62 mph) without any decrease in braking effectiveness. And with somewhat more sensible use, the silicon-carbide discs should last 300,000 kilometers (185,000 miles)."
(All of a sudden Porsche is now quoting 1500 miles?????)
**********************************************************
Porsche Cars North America, Inc. 2000 911 Turbo Literature:
"Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes: Strong enough to stop time. (Or, at least, wear and tear)
Once again, Porsche has stopped conventional thinking in its tracks by being the first to offer a revolutionary new ceramic brake disc as an option on the new 911 Turbo. Called Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes (PCCB), this new technology shatters benchmarks in every respect.
While it’s dimensions are similar, a ceramic brake disc weighs 50 percent less than its cast-iron counterpart, reducing unsprung weight by 44lts for improved handling. Armed with new composite metal linings, ceramic brakes maintain their frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the ultimate in fade-free stopping power. Cross-drilled discs and water resistant brake linings ensure equally superior performance in wet weather.
PCCB technology achieves immediate emergency braking without having to stomp on the brake pedal. It’s service life is every bit as effortless: the ceramic’s hard surface and corrosion-free properties allow a brake disc to last as long as the car itself. Which, for a Porsche, is a long time indeed."
(“shatters benchmarks in every respect” Which benchmarks – the brakes fade when hot, wear out many times faster than other systems, cost many times more, and don’t brake as well – are they talking about benchmarks going the wrong way? This brake system DID NOT “maintain it’s frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the ultimate in fade-free stopping power” as I demonstrated at Watkins Glen).
**********************************************************
Suncoast Motors – on their website:
"The 911 GT2 comes with the most effective braking system ever featured on a production Porsche: the Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB). This is a powerful new technology designed to cope with even the most extreme conditions on racetrack and road.
At the heart of the new technology is a ceramic brake disc made of specially treated carbon fibre silicated in a high-vacuum process at approximately 1,700 ºC. The PCCB disc is cross-drilled and internally vented, and is approximately 50% lighter than conventional alternatives. Since this weight is unsprung, i.e., not supported by the suspension, PCCB automatically improves agility and handling. Another feature of the system is the innovative new composite brake pad, which combines with the ceramic disc to deliver extremely high and constant levels of friction under braking. By replacing conventional metal components with composite pads and discs, temperature is no longer a factor in brake performance. This configuration not only helps minimise braking distances - particularly under heavy use - it also ensures safer deceleration from high speed thanks to improved fade resistance.
In an emergency stop, PCCB immediately delivers maximum stopping power to the road. Abrasion is extremely low compared with metal discs, with each PCCB disc offering a service life of approximately 300,000 km. The new composite brake pads also last around twice as long as conventional ones. What's more, the new PCCB pads do not absorb water, making for outstanding performance in the wet.
This kit is the complete retro-fit kit for a Turbo 996 or Carrera 4S. This kit includes all of the necessary parts for the installation.
Call for more information, and freight pricing. Retail price is $14,000."
Suncoast is offering the full set of PCCB for $12,995.95 (I wonder if that set includes 4 versus the 2 rotors that Brandywine quoted me $18K for)
**********************************************************
If I spend more time looking around I can guarantee that I will find other articles, many of which were published by Porsche, that state that these brakes are the best money can buy.
I don’t know if this issue should fall under warranty, defective parts, or false advertising but as far as I’m concerned when I spend $190K on a vehicle that’s advertised as an outstanding high performance vehicle, with brakes that are beyond compare, and those brakes wear out within 1700 miles, and Porsche wants me to pay $18K to replace two rotors (and I’ll still face the same problems because the PCCB brakes will not last), something is clearly wrong here.
Gee Porsche look at how quickly everyone knows of the problem!
***************************************************************
seem far from positive! further, the csl is billed as a track car and porsche warns of 1500 miles worth of track usage for the ceramics. 1500 miles later it's about $20k time, and brake fade and problems with heat have been mentioned as attributes of porsche's ceramics. here is a post from one of the several unsatifieds:
Mark GT2
User
Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 12
Another PCCB story
I apologize for the lengthy posting……
I wanted to share this with anyone considering PCCB. I had the rare opportunity of testing 2 cars side by side (a 2002 GT2 with PCCB and stock pads as well as the green race pads against a 2001 Twin Turbo with stock brakes except for pagid orange pads. I don’t profess to have any mechanical knowledge – but I believe that I have some common sense and I pursued this issue in a proper way.
Purchased the GT2 new on August 26, 2002
When I purchased my GT2 I fully had intentions to use the car on both the street and for Driver’s Education classes (on the track). The reason I purchased the GT2 is because, at that time, it was advertised as THE hottest street legal car Porsche had ever built. A large drawing factor was that this car was equipped with the new Ceramic Composite Brakes (PCCB). All the advertisements I read stated that the brakes would never wear out, would last the life of the car, would never “fade”, that they weighed less, stopped faster, etc. I was previously unable to get Ceramic Brakes with our Turbo because, even though it was listed as an option, we were told that “they were not available on the Turbo”. I soon learned that the only thing that was true about these PCCB brakes was that they weighed less.
In October of 2002 I took the car to Watkins Glen for a Driver’s Education event. I brought the GT2 and our 2001 Twin Turbo and I was looking forward to testing it out. While going around the track I noticed that with the GT2 there was a slight brake fade on a couple of the turns. Because the weather was cold I thought perhaps the brakes had not warmed up enough. After being sure that the brakes were hot I was going down the back strait, hit my brakes hard for the chicane turn, and actually shot past the turn and into a cone because the brakes did not work – there was significant brake fade. (The cone put some scratches on the car and it cost me $800 to refinish it). Before I left the Glen I wanted to try the same thing again, as a carefully planned test, and again I went straight past the chicane turn because the brakes failed again (however, I anticipated the failure and didn’t hit any cones this time).
When I got back home I started researching this issue. I didn’t know what the cause was – and I didn’t know who to talk to. The Porsche dealership said there were no issues with the brakes what-so-ever and all the materials I read said how great the brakes were. I had a feeling that I had become a guinea pig and that I was one of the first people to really test out these brakes. So I contacted a number of senior instructors in our club and they gave me many suggestions on who to contact.
After numerous call I finally was directed to call Andreas Boehm (Pagid Motorsports Race Engineering Support) and he said that “Although Pagid is the OE brake pad supplier for the GT2’s Ceramic brake we are not authorized for the time being to give any recommendations about the PCCB brake”. Andreas said that I should speak with Alwin Springer (Porsche Motor Sports) or Eric Bloss.
*********************************************************
February 2003 I sent this note to Alwin Springer of Porsche Motor Sports
"I recently purchased a new 2002 GT2 and the car is used almost exclusively for track events I've noticed that the stock pads did not work well on the track and I’m trying to resolve this issue. The GT2 has the ceramic brakes and is totally stock except for hoosier tires.
While driving the car at Watkins Glen (the weather was about 40 degrees this past
October) at the end of the back strait I would hit the brakes hard (going about 160-165 mph) and the ABS did not kick in.....the tires did not lock up.....and I just continued rolling forward...slowing down....but not very fast (it was as if the breaks had not been warm). I should note that I had run a few laps to warm up the brakes before doing this.
I then took my 2001 twin turbo out to the same spot, at about the same speed, and it stopped on a dime - everytime (the turbo has pagid orange pads but everything else is stock).
Any suggestions? Any pads for this application? I’m hoping that I won’t have to replace the entire brake system to achieve proper performance."
Note: Alwin called me back and informed me that the brakes DID NOT work well when they were heated up. He also told me that Porsche had just released 2 other types of brake pads for the car to try and resolve this problem… so now there were 3 types (street pad, sport pad, and race pad – I had been using the sport pad)
*********************************************************
This was quite a surprise to me but after learning about the “new” race pads I immediately ordered a set.
After a couple of DE events, with the new green race pads, I can honestly report that my 2001 Turbo will still stop more consistently and faster than the GT2. I verified this with a number of instructors who also drove both of our cars.
In August of 2003 I was at Watkins Glen – with brand new green “race” pads on the GT2 and new pagid orange pads on the Turbo. Both cars were driven about the same amount of time and at the same levels of speed. When we pulled the tires to check the pads the Turbo had almost 2/3 of the material left – but the GT2 had worn down to shreds of pad material. Not only had the GT2 pads worn down completely – but we noticed that the rotors were becoming pitted and ceramic material was “flaking” out of the rotor. At this point I didn’t want to drive the car any longer because I was concerned that the rotor could potentially shatter (being ceramic).
After returning from the Glen in August we took the car to Brandywine Porsche to get the rotors replaced – assuming that warranty or common sense would apply here – (having only 1700 miles on the vehicle from new) – but the service manager said that since I had taken it to the track it would not be covered. They then proposed that I get the 2 (not four) front rotors and pads replaced at a cost of $17,940.00 (and I have the quote).
After some recent browsing through Rennteam.com (Porsche technical discussion forum) I found this remark posted on June 11, 2003 in regards to PCCB performance – although I can’t verify if this is correct – it sounds to be true.
*********************************************************
Rennteam.com June 11, 2003
“Here's PMNA's answer:
The PCCB brakes are suitable for race track usage, but you have to change
the pads to PAGID P50-RS14 (green). These pads are available from PMNA.
Please contact Phoebe in the parts department directly.
The estimated lifetime of the PCCB rotors is about 1500 miles. Please check
the rotors and pads periodically.”
(1500 MILES!!!!!!! Not the 185,000 miles that they listed in Christophorus Magazine, not the “allow a brake disc to last as long as the car itself” as listed in Porsche’s literature about PCCB. Obviously I, and a few select other individuals, learned this well after we had purchased our cars.)
**********************************************************
Here are some quotes about the brakes that I read.
**********************************************************
Autoweek, July 10, 2002.
"The new Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes were only slightly less awe-inspiring, bringing the GT2 from 60 mph to a stop in 114 feet. Had this been any other car we would have enthused about that figure, but in the rarified air of this supercar we were hoping for a sub-100-foot figure. The Z06 still holds the record at 105 feet from 60, followed by the BMW Z8 and 911 Turbo at 109 and 110 feet, respectively."
(As illustrated here in the tests they performed – the very expensive Ceramic Brakes did not stop the lighter GT2 as quickly as the heavier less expensive Turbo brakes).
**********************************************************
Porsche Panorama, April 2001
"In use, these are brakes with no sense of humor, and somewhere in the owner’s manual it better say “don’t put your foot on the brakes unless you look in the rear view mirror first.” There might also need to be a word about having enough air in your lungs to go without breathing for a while during operation of the ceramic seizers. They are nevertheless quite linear and controllable, with sometimes a little pad squeak, but surprising little dust. They are reported to be very durable – as in forever – but be prepared to buy pads a bit more often."
(“very durable – as in forever” Since when is 1700 miles “forever”).
**********************************************************
Porsche Christophorus Magazine April/May 2001
"In the test program, the ceramic disks and Brembo calipers have withstood twenty such hard braking cycles from 250 km/h (155 mph) to 100 km/h (62 mph) without any decrease in braking effectiveness. And with somewhat more sensible use, the silicon-carbide discs should last 300,000 kilometers (185,000 miles)."
(All of a sudden Porsche is now quoting 1500 miles?????)
**********************************************************
Porsche Cars North America, Inc. 2000 911 Turbo Literature:
"Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes: Strong enough to stop time. (Or, at least, wear and tear)
Once again, Porsche has stopped conventional thinking in its tracks by being the first to offer a revolutionary new ceramic brake disc as an option on the new 911 Turbo. Called Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes (PCCB), this new technology shatters benchmarks in every respect.
While it’s dimensions are similar, a ceramic brake disc weighs 50 percent less than its cast-iron counterpart, reducing unsprung weight by 44lts for improved handling. Armed with new composite metal linings, ceramic brakes maintain their frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the ultimate in fade-free stopping power. Cross-drilled discs and water resistant brake linings ensure equally superior performance in wet weather.
PCCB technology achieves immediate emergency braking without having to stomp on the brake pedal. It’s service life is every bit as effortless: the ceramic’s hard surface and corrosion-free properties allow a brake disc to last as long as the car itself. Which, for a Porsche, is a long time indeed."
(“shatters benchmarks in every respect” Which benchmarks – the brakes fade when hot, wear out many times faster than other systems, cost many times more, and don’t brake as well – are they talking about benchmarks going the wrong way? This brake system DID NOT “maintain it’s frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the ultimate in fade-free stopping power” as I demonstrated at Watkins Glen).
**********************************************************
Suncoast Motors – on their website:
"The 911 GT2 comes with the most effective braking system ever featured on a production Porsche: the Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB). This is a powerful new technology designed to cope with even the most extreme conditions on racetrack and road.
At the heart of the new technology is a ceramic brake disc made of specially treated carbon fibre silicated in a high-vacuum process at approximately 1,700 ºC. The PCCB disc is cross-drilled and internally vented, and is approximately 50% lighter than conventional alternatives. Since this weight is unsprung, i.e., not supported by the suspension, PCCB automatically improves agility and handling. Another feature of the system is the innovative new composite brake pad, which combines with the ceramic disc to deliver extremely high and constant levels of friction under braking. By replacing conventional metal components with composite pads and discs, temperature is no longer a factor in brake performance. This configuration not only helps minimise braking distances - particularly under heavy use - it also ensures safer deceleration from high speed thanks to improved fade resistance.
In an emergency stop, PCCB immediately delivers maximum stopping power to the road. Abrasion is extremely low compared with metal discs, with each PCCB disc offering a service life of approximately 300,000 km. The new composite brake pads also last around twice as long as conventional ones. What's more, the new PCCB pads do not absorb water, making for outstanding performance in the wet.
This kit is the complete retro-fit kit for a Turbo 996 or Carrera 4S. This kit includes all of the necessary parts for the installation.
Call for more information, and freight pricing. Retail price is $14,000."
Suncoast is offering the full set of PCCB for $12,995.95 (I wonder if that set includes 4 versus the 2 rotors that Brandywine quoted me $18K for)
**********************************************************
If I spend more time looking around I can guarantee that I will find other articles, many of which were published by Porsche, that state that these brakes are the best money can buy.
I don’t know if this issue should fall under warranty, defective parts, or false advertising but as far as I’m concerned when I spend $190K on a vehicle that’s advertised as an outstanding high performance vehicle, with brakes that are beyond compare, and those brakes wear out within 1700 miles, and Porsche wants me to pay $18K to replace two rotors (and I’ll still face the same problems because the PCCB brakes will not last), something is clearly wrong here.
11-12-2003, 09:16 AM
#34
Burning Brakes
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Originally posted by AW
... it is still unclear to me whether or not Ferrari uses the same technology. Also, maybe they have better ducts and larger rotors. This said, there are already a few stories about Enzo carbon brakes failing. The stradale uses exactly the same rotors....
... it is still unclear to me whether or not Ferrari uses the same technology. Also, maybe they have better ducts and larger rotors. This said, there are already a few stories about Enzo carbon brakes failing. The stradale uses exactly the same rotors....
I've no personal experience to go on. I did see one Stradale with very few miles on it recently though and its rotors were already showing a lot of wear.
Stephen
11-12-2003, 09:33 AM
#35
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Originally posted by twisted
I notice at only 400 miles that my left front rotor is showing surface cracks from hole to hole all over the rotor. None and I'll say this again, none of the other three rotors have this problem. The Porsche NA rep and dealer are saying that this is normal, yet the other three rotors show no sign of this problem.
I notice at only 400 miles that my left front rotor is showing surface cracks from hole to hole all over the rotor. None and I'll say this again, none of the other three rotors have this problem. The Porsche NA rep and dealer are saying that this is normal, yet the other three rotors show no sign of this problem.
What you describe is caused by differential surface heating. It could have happened at the manufacturing stage or through use.
Still quite servicable. The problem will come when the cracking increases and parts of the surface start to come away (as seen on my latest set of rotors).
For what it is worth, few have any clue what is normal. I was being told my rotors were normal even when the surface was completely gone and I could no longer brake in a straight line.
Stephen
11-12-2003, 11:35 AM
#36
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This is not a surprise at all.
I contacted the head of PCNA Customer Commitment recently about a few things on my 996. This was after a lengthy back-and-forth with my DSM, who is a great guy, but who toed the company line.
My expectation was at least a direct response from the Customer Commitment head.
Nope. He passed it right back to the DSM, who then called me simply to restate the company position.
What a bunch of hokey.
Chrysler does it this way too, and has for years. The TOP DOGS in Customer Service DO NOT talk with customers.
Go figure.
I guess when sales begin to plummet because of warranty issues like this, someone, somewhere will listen. PAG...are you listening?
I contacted the head of PCNA Customer Commitment recently about a few things on my 996. This was after a lengthy back-and-forth with my DSM, who is a great guy, but who toed the company line.
My expectation was at least a direct response from the Customer Commitment head.
Nope. He passed it right back to the DSM, who then called me simply to restate the company position.
What a bunch of hokey.
Chrysler does it this way too, and has for years. The TOP DOGS in Customer Service DO NOT talk with customers.
Go figure.
I guess when sales begin to plummet because of warranty issues like this, someone, somewhere will listen. PAG...are you listening?
__________________
Eric
Chief Plug Guy
BumperPlugs.com
2022 GT3 Touring
2009 997 Turbo Cab
2018 M2 6sp
Gone but not forgotten
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1999 C2 Cab
Eric
Chief Plug Guy
BumperPlugs.com
2022 GT3 Touring
2009 997 Turbo Cab
2018 M2 6sp
Gone but not forgotten
2004 C4S Cabriolet
1999 C2 Cab
11-12-2003, 01:17 PM
#37
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Originally posted by Colm
Before you go the Ferrari route check out carefully the concern that the lack of oil pumps in the engine cause oil starvation problems at one end of it. This problem has been showing up on cars that are heavily tracked..so it's a real issue.
Before you go the Ferrari route check out carefully the concern that the lack of oil pumps in the engine cause oil starvation problems at one end of it. This problem has been showing up on cars that are heavily tracked..so it's a real issue.
11-12-2003, 01:54 PM
#38
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As an FYI a link to this thread has now been posted to our local PCA website for the education of the members in our local chapter. Hopefully, others will spread the word too until someone at Porsche takes notice and handles the problem(s) properly.
11-12-2003, 02:02 PM
#39
Keeper of the Truth
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Originally posted by rosso360
As to 360 Ferrari engine problems, I know there was a con-rod lubrication issue with the early 360 Challenge cars that was fixed, never heard of anyone with a street 360 that has had any problems, and I do a number of track days.
As to 360 Ferrari engine problems, I know there was a con-rod lubrication issue with the early 360 Challenge cars that was fixed, never heard of anyone with a street 360 that has had any problems, and I do a number of track days.
11-12-2003, 02:37 PM
#40
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Gawd,
This whole thread is discouraging to say the least. Watt, your idea of keeping mum is fine and dandy but it won't work for me. As the Chief Instructor for the region I'd have a hard time saying that I did not use my car on the track. I suppose that a track inspection would also blow the whistle on an owner nevermind GT3 seats, roll bar and fire extinguisher.
I am astonished by the attitude we've seen from PCNA. Normally these guys "fess up" and resolve the problem. Porsche has made a few mistakes in the past and has been very good about correcting them. If (as it has been alleged) PCCB does not stand up to track use then Porsche should offer us a free alternative that does work. I'd settle for a new set of PCCB rotors AND a free conversion to steel rotors. Alternately a free steel rotor setup and refund of the price I paid for PCCB in the first place. The option price for a PCCB upgrade to a 996 TT or GT3 would be about right. Clearly we did not get what we expected.
When you look at this from a dollar perspective, how many cars are affected? It's not like there thousands of PCCB equipped vehicles out there. I speculate that there are fewer PCCB cars than there were 964's with leaks from the heads. That repair was very costly and Porsche did it without complaint. What's changed at HQ I wonder?
This whole thread is discouraging to say the least. Watt, your idea of keeping mum is fine and dandy but it won't work for me. As the Chief Instructor for the region I'd have a hard time saying that I did not use my car on the track. I suppose that a track inspection would also blow the whistle on an owner nevermind GT3 seats, roll bar and fire extinguisher.
I am astonished by the attitude we've seen from PCNA. Normally these guys "fess up" and resolve the problem. Porsche has made a few mistakes in the past and has been very good about correcting them. If (as it has been alleged) PCCB does not stand up to track use then Porsche should offer us a free alternative that does work. I'd settle for a new set of PCCB rotors AND a free conversion to steel rotors. Alternately a free steel rotor setup and refund of the price I paid for PCCB in the first place. The option price for a PCCB upgrade to a 996 TT or GT3 would be about right. Clearly we did not get what we expected.
When you look at this from a dollar perspective, how many cars are affected? It's not like there thousands of PCCB equipped vehicles out there. I speculate that there are fewer PCCB cars than there were 964's with leaks from the heads. That repair was very costly and Porsche did it without complaint. What's changed at HQ I wonder?
11-12-2003, 03:16 PM
#41
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Prior to the purchase of my 02 GT 2 , I was provided with a hardback book entitled THE 911 GT 2. On page 24 paragraph 2 it states " The Porsche ceramic composite brake {PCCB} sports a revolutionary new design capable of enduring the extremes of racing and outlasting the most wicked turns a winding mountain road can muster". In regard to this issue my local dealer has stated that they will warranty my brake system for open track days and drivers ed only. If I install safety equipment and race I am on my own. Which is quite reasonable. The owner of my dealership is a hard core car guy and will not put up with any Porsche BS. When my wifes Cayenne can in with tons of problems he took it back ordered her a new one and told Porsche to come fix their problem because his techs could not solve all the problems. However he gets away with this because he has been the only Porsche dealer in Las Vegas for 30 years. Recently the local master tech was sent to Atlanta for tech and driving ED on the GT 3 and Cayenne turbo while in Atlanta one of the Porsche drivers caused a brake failure on the GT3 PCCB system. Therefore a defect does exist and Porsche is aware of it , how they resolve it and treat us remains to be seen. However this is getting much more publicity and is hurting the value of our GT2s even more. I believe Porshe will come up with a pad compound that can absorb the heat without failure, I hope.
11-12-2003, 03:17 PM
#42
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Originally posted by Bob Rouleau
When you look at this from a dollar perspective, how many cars are affected? It's not like there thousands of PCCB equipped vehicles out there. I speculate that there are fewer PCCB cars than there were 964's with leaks from the heads. That repair was very costly and Porsche did it without complaint. What's changed at HQ I wonder?
When you look at this from a dollar perspective, how many cars are affected? It's not like there thousands of PCCB equipped vehicles out there. I speculate that there are fewer PCCB cars than there were 964's with leaks from the heads. That repair was very costly and Porsche did it without complaint. What's changed at HQ I wonder?
Ok, this is pure speculation but … let’s say that it is determined within PAG that PCCB’s don’t work, weren’t properly tested before introduction and maybe even are dangerous. So how did that happen? Who signed off on these things without all of the engineering and testing that you would normally expect? Heads would surely have to roll. And we all know that power at PAG is concentrated in a very few hands. That person would have to be very high up.
So faced with this situation, who lower down would dare announce that the king has no clothes? Being a messenger of bad new is not a good way to advance your prospects.
Stephen
11-12-2003, 03:43 PM
#43
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Originally posted by Marco Polo
I don't want to impune the integrity of any of those who are expressing discontent, but the simple fact is that we have no verification of anything that they are reporting. Strictly speaking, the whole thing could be a hoax. (I myself doubt that's quite the case, but the fact remains and highlights how insubstantial is the "information" that we have now.) If the rotors have failed prematurely, we don't know the conditions beyond what the complainants have told, and so on.
I don't want to impune the integrity of any of those who are expressing discontent, but the simple fact is that we have no verification of anything that they are reporting. Strictly speaking, the whole thing could be a hoax. (I myself doubt that's quite the case, but the fact remains and highlights how insubstantial is the "information" that we have now.) If the rotors have failed prematurely, we don't know the conditions beyond what the complainants have told, and so on.
I am one of the loudest critics. That’s because I now have 55,000 km. of experience with these brakes. So far, everything I have presented has been factually based. There have been photographs of the parts and factual information on what has happened to them. When I have drawn conclusions I have been very careful to label them so and to say when I can on what they are based.
But even beyond that, even Porsche has accepted that there are problems. The rotors have been replaced as defective. Where arguments ensue it is who is going to pay for it. But there are no arguments as to whether or not these things are coming apart.
So I frankly think you’re a little off base here.
Stephen
11-12-2003, 03:55 PM
#45
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Originally posted by Les Quam
Recently the local master tech was sent to Atlanta for tech and driving ED on the GT 3 and Cayenne turbo while in Atlanta one of the Porsche drivers caused a brake failure on the GT3 PCCB system. Therefore a defect does exist and Porsche is aware of it , how they resolve it and treat us remains to be seen.
Recently the local master tech was sent to Atlanta for tech and driving ED on the GT 3 and Cayenne turbo while in Atlanta one of the Porsche drivers caused a brake failure on the GT3 PCCB system. Therefore a defect does exist and Porsche is aware of it , how they resolve it and treat us remains to be seen.
On the pads, my info is that even the latest development pads aren't up to the task. As I said before, I think ultimately problems with the pads are going to be the hardest issue to resolve. And when they do, what will this do to the rotors? Look at other's reports on their experiences with the new P50 pad.
Stephen