PCCB Arbitration Results
11-11-2003, 03:37 PM
#16
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Originally posted by watt
Karl, your comment is nuts: when you chip your car you lose your warranty, as we have all known for [15] years [in my case]. and all of above is actuially true.
Karl, your comment is nuts: when you chip your car you lose your warranty, as we have all known for [15] years [in my case]. and all of above is actuially true.
11-11-2003, 04:20 PM
#17
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You beat me to it Viken, however, this is where it always gets fuzzy in my mind (and, presumably, in a case like Karl's):
"...The law means that the use of an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty. However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty... "
"...The law means that the use of an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty. However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty... "
11-11-2003, 04:29 PM
#18
I can not believe what I am reading here. I have a deposit on a GT3 that has been built and somewhere in transit and waiting to be shipped.
I did not buy the car to compete competitively, but I did want to do DE events, in order to appreciate this car for its intended usage. If this is the case then I should just go buy any car. Why buy a Porsche?.
Buying a GT3 is a stretch for me, spending more then I care to on a car. I expect it to be fully warrentied for DE events. I agree and understand that for competition use there should be no warranty. I am toying with getting my deposit back as I know I will not have anything definitive from them to state that my warranty would apply if I DE it.
I did not buy the car to compete competitively, but I did want to do DE events, in order to appreciate this car for its intended usage. If this is the case then I should just go buy any car. Why buy a Porsche?.
Buying a GT3 is a stretch for me, spending more then I care to on a car. I expect it to be fully warrentied for DE events. I agree and understand that for competition use there should be no warranty. I am toying with getting my deposit back as I know I will not have anything definitive from them to state that my warranty would apply if I DE it.
11-11-2003, 06:03 PM
#19
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Bill, I can empathize with your ill ease. This "controversy" catches you at a particularly sharp juncture. However, you may be over-reacting by virtue of a web BBS's effect of magnifying significance of isolated events or unsubstantiated opinions.
For one thing, we are reading about problems from only a handful of posters and it is simply impossible to conclude to what extent they may be representative, though the likelihood is that they are a very small sample group. This is likely because people are far more likely to publicize their discontent than to speak up to declare their satisfaction, and yet these threads are not drawing any supportive reports of similar experiences.
I don't want to impune the integrity of any of those who are expressing discontent, but the simple fact is that we have no verification of anything that they are reporting. Strictly speaking, the whole thing could be a hoax. (I myself doubt that's quite the case, but the fact remains and highlights how insubstantial is the "information" that we have now.) If the rotors have failed prematurely, we don't know the conditions beyond what the complainants have told, and so on.
Even if we had (or believe we have) information to assure us that the complaints have been fairly and accurately reported, we still must discount the effect of presenting a single (or very few) dramatic episode to represent the likelihood of similar experiences in the broader population. And it is unrealistic to expect anyone to report his contentions and the adverse outcome without some bias.
It is true that I have become concerned on the PCCB issue to the point of seriously considering a retrofit of cast metal rotors, but that $4,000 remedy is not yet persuasive to me as the obvious course to take. On the other hand, I have been absolutely delighted with the vehicle over-all and with my entire experience and, in fact, with everything except the misgivings that have been raised by these reports. I'm inclined to counsel you to stick with your order, but I realize that it presents an excruciating dilemma for you.
Finally, not only do I wish not to impune those reporting these problems with PCCB, but (on any basis except out-right hoax) the Porsche community should be grateful for the exchange of information about the cars especially if it concerns serious defects, and this will remain true even if it were to develop that their experiences were so peculiar as to be irrelevant to the rest of us - this is something we may know only far after the fact of their reportage.
For one thing, we are reading about problems from only a handful of posters and it is simply impossible to conclude to what extent they may be representative, though the likelihood is that they are a very small sample group. This is likely because people are far more likely to publicize their discontent than to speak up to declare their satisfaction, and yet these threads are not drawing any supportive reports of similar experiences.
I don't want to impune the integrity of any of those who are expressing discontent, but the simple fact is that we have no verification of anything that they are reporting. Strictly speaking, the whole thing could be a hoax. (I myself doubt that's quite the case, but the fact remains and highlights how insubstantial is the "information" that we have now.) If the rotors have failed prematurely, we don't know the conditions beyond what the complainants have told, and so on.
Even if we had (or believe we have) information to assure us that the complaints have been fairly and accurately reported, we still must discount the effect of presenting a single (or very few) dramatic episode to represent the likelihood of similar experiences in the broader population. And it is unrealistic to expect anyone to report his contentions and the adverse outcome without some bias.
It is true that I have become concerned on the PCCB issue to the point of seriously considering a retrofit of cast metal rotors, but that $4,000 remedy is not yet persuasive to me as the obvious course to take. On the other hand, I have been absolutely delighted with the vehicle over-all and with my entire experience and, in fact, with everything except the misgivings that have been raised by these reports. I'm inclined to counsel you to stick with your order, but I realize that it presents an excruciating dilemma for you.
Finally, not only do I wish not to impune those reporting these problems with PCCB, but (on any basis except out-right hoax) the Porsche community should be grateful for the exchange of information about the cars especially if it concerns serious defects, and this will remain true even if it were to develop that their experiences were so peculiar as to be irrelevant to the rest of us - this is something we may know only far after the fact of their reportage.
11-11-2003, 06:06 PM
#21
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I had some big words left over from my prior post.
Tantamount, repository, ambiguous, hijinx, recondite, pervasive, holomyceniericalistic.
Okay. I'm better now.
Tantamount, repository, ambiguous, hijinx, recondite, pervasive, holomyceniericalistic.
Okay. I'm better now.
Last edited by Marco Polo; 01-31-2004 at 11:49 AM.
11-11-2003, 06:43 PM
#22
Marco - very well put.
AW - no I did not order PCCB, (I almost did) however their position on this issue goes far deeper then that. What about any other problems one may have, if they have "tracked" their car? Those are my concerns.
Reading the earlier posts are alarming, and if objective and on point then I can only hope Porsche will make the requisite changes to their handling of warranty complaints and standby their products. I believe the foundation of their business is dependent on it.
After seeing the local DE event at Road Atlanta I am dying with anticipation for my GT3.
AW - no I did not order PCCB, (I almost did) however their position on this issue goes far deeper then that. What about any other problems one may have, if they have "tracked" their car? Those are my concerns.
Reading the earlier posts are alarming, and if objective and on point then I can only hope Porsche will make the requisite changes to their handling of warranty complaints and standby their products. I believe the foundation of their business is dependent on it.
After seeing the local DE event at Road Atlanta I am dying with anticipation for my GT3.
11-11-2003, 09:21 PM
#23
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Bill,
I was not trying to scare anyone, simply pointing out that PCNA has covered their legal a$$ with the warranty language about track usage and exceeding legal speed limits. The way the warranty is written, they can just about deny coverage at any time they want, and you have no recourse other than to sue under the Magnusson-Moss act.
As I said earlier, the most important element here is your dealer. Many dealers I have heard about recognize why some of us buy Porsches instead of other brands and they will stand behind the cars, regardless of how they might think the car has been used. If you have a dealer like this, I doubt you will have any problems.
However, other dealers, such as the one I used to use, can be total pr..ks. This did not stop me from buying a new GT3 but I've switched dealers, even though my new shop is much less convenient. My wifes Audi also doesn't go to the old dealer any more and I give them a negative rap whenever I can. I won't personally put them out of business but they are building a pretty bad reputation in the area and eventually it will hurt them.
Karl
I was not trying to scare anyone, simply pointing out that PCNA has covered their legal a$$ with the warranty language about track usage and exceeding legal speed limits. The way the warranty is written, they can just about deny coverage at any time they want, and you have no recourse other than to sue under the Magnusson-Moss act.
As I said earlier, the most important element here is your dealer. Many dealers I have heard about recognize why some of us buy Porsches instead of other brands and they will stand behind the cars, regardless of how they might think the car has been used. If you have a dealer like this, I doubt you will have any problems.
However, other dealers, such as the one I used to use, can be total pr..ks. This did not stop me from buying a new GT3 but I've switched dealers, even though my new shop is much less convenient. My wifes Audi also doesn't go to the old dealer any more and I give them a negative rap whenever I can. I won't personally put them out of business but they are building a pretty bad reputation in the area and eventually it will hurt them.
Karl
11-11-2003, 10:46 PM
#24
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I don't have ceramics (happily), but the situation is not unambiguous. Porsche has changed their language to deny responsibility if the brakes fail with track use. This is an insane change, particularly since these very cars are sold with the intention of track usage. It is particularly insane for a company which sponsors track usage. I have been at track events hosted by PCNA and instructed by top level endurance drivers hired by Porsche who demonstrate the owner's cars capabilities, using the owner's car! Now, Porsche is saying if you do what they encourage, you could sustain a $16,000 repair each day. Every single person with a PCCB car on order should cancel their order, or refuse delivery until the brakes are changed out. At this point, any time you track a car designed for track use, sold with the intention of fostering track use, and advertised for the very strengths which can be demonstrated legally only at a track, the car is off warranty. Tell me exactly why any car which has seen 3000rpm in 6th gear hasn't voided the same warranty provision? In point of fact, doesn't hitting the red line in any gear but 1st accomplish the same thing- void the warranty by exceeding the speed limit? Mr. Watt's sarcasm cannot possibly excuse Porsche's position for a single owner, regardless of previous chip experience, undocumented violations of unmeasurable break-in procedures, or use type. Something is wrong with these brakes, either across the board or intermittantly thru the manufacture proces. My bet is that PCCB's cannot consistently get rid of the heat the cars were designed to generate. What's next, a computer add-on to shut down the engine when you brake too hard? Why not just put a 65mph governor on?AS
11-11-2003, 10:49 PM
#25
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It is tough to feel comfortable investing so much when warranty coverage is effectively discretionary, but that's about the size of it if you want to use a Porsche on the track. Absent stupid or obvious abuse, there's most often no problems with savvy dealerships and even regional reps. Nevertheless, if we ask them to "go on record," they'll have to back off and go with the corporate line. Do you get where I'm going with this? It may be uncomfortable now, but it would be possible to totally screw it up. I'm not saying "just bend over," but do be smart.
11-11-2003, 11:10 PM
#26
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Wow! This is a very interesting thread.
>>I wonder if Ferrari owners have these kinds of issues?<<
Just to give you guys an idea of Ferrari's attitude, Ferrari of San Francisco hosts two track days per year for their clients...and they are a factory owned dealership. The Stradale comes standard with ceramic brakes, so it'll be instructive to see how they deal with what I assume will be the same problems.
Gary
>>I wonder if Ferrari owners have these kinds of issues?<<
Just to give you guys an idea of Ferrari's attitude, Ferrari of San Francisco hosts two track days per year for their clients...and they are a factory owned dealership. The Stradale comes standard with ceramic brakes, so it'll be instructive to see how they deal with what I assume will be the same problems.
Gary
11-12-2003, 12:14 AM
#27
Yes you are correct. However, it is still unclear to me whether or not Ferrari uses the same technology. Also, maybe they have better ducts and larger rotors. This said, there are already a few stories about Enzo carbon brakes failing. The stradale uses exactly the same rotors....
Needless to say, I will request steel rotors if this is the same kind of brakes.
AW
Needless to say, I will request steel rotors if this is the same kind of brakes.
AW
11-12-2003, 12:43 AM
#28
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AW,
Before you go the Ferrari route check out carefully the concern that the lack of oil pumps in the engine cause oil starvation problems at one end of it. This problem has been showing up on cars that are heavily tracked..so it's a real issue.
Marco Polo,
I agree with your sentiments..you're on the money! It never pays to back anyone into a corner. While I have concerns, I have to say Porsche has always gone the extra mile to take care of my concerns and issues.
Before you go the Ferrari route check out carefully the concern that the lack of oil pumps in the engine cause oil starvation problems at one end of it. This problem has been showing up on cars that are heavily tracked..so it's a real issue.
Marco Polo,
I agree with your sentiments..you're on the money! It never pays to back anyone into a corner. While I have concerns, I have to say Porsche has always gone the extra mile to take care of my concerns and issues.
11-12-2003, 12:52 AM
#29
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WATT - Glad to see you enjoyed my "Batman" line - thought it went unnoticed.
Listen people - we are buying high performace STREET CARS and subjecting them to abnormal use. Let's please be realistic here. We cannot expect the company to fix all of these problems when many of us are effectively beating the **** out of these cars. We all know that with track use and high speeds we are putting more than normal wear and tear on the vehicle. Sure that is why many of us bought them, but the warranty certainly doesnt say "we will cover any and all repairs and product failure under heavy track usage".
I am sure there are many with PCCB that have had NO problems - Most of you make the mistake of opening your big mouths in the first place. You track and modify your car, great. Put it back to stock when something breaks and hope for the best. I dont care what the law says, who has the time nor the desire to fight with your dealer?? All it takes from them is a simple "NO" and you have a world of SH*T to deal with to try to get them to change their minds. Realistically, most dealers will not give a crap if you dont throw things right in their faces. They get paid for all the warranty work, get the parts for free, so you think its any sweat off their sacks? But if you get into a touchy, expensive repair and the company wants to send a rep down, having your car stock (Stock wheels and tires too) and not offering any information as to how you drive the car would help - That is just stupidity in my book no matter what you feel the car is built for.
Until this happens on a wide scale, which I doubt it ever will, and becomes a serious or recall type issue, race at your own risk. While their life expectancy of the product seems to be incorrect (How could we buy into this anyway - its so new that who could have put over 100K in mileage of real driving to test these out?), I cant see any evidence of these parts being "defective" and therefore anyone who has em is screwed.
Summary - Drive hard, keep your mouth's shut about it, and put car back to stock if it breaks. Tipping the service manager helps too... Otherwise drive it like your granny and god bless..
Listen people - we are buying high performace STREET CARS and subjecting them to abnormal use. Let's please be realistic here. We cannot expect the company to fix all of these problems when many of us are effectively beating the **** out of these cars. We all know that with track use and high speeds we are putting more than normal wear and tear on the vehicle. Sure that is why many of us bought them, but the warranty certainly doesnt say "we will cover any and all repairs and product failure under heavy track usage".
I am sure there are many with PCCB that have had NO problems - Most of you make the mistake of opening your big mouths in the first place. You track and modify your car, great. Put it back to stock when something breaks and hope for the best. I dont care what the law says, who has the time nor the desire to fight with your dealer?? All it takes from them is a simple "NO" and you have a world of SH*T to deal with to try to get them to change their minds. Realistically, most dealers will not give a crap if you dont throw things right in their faces. They get paid for all the warranty work, get the parts for free, so you think its any sweat off their sacks? But if you get into a touchy, expensive repair and the company wants to send a rep down, having your car stock (Stock wheels and tires too) and not offering any information as to how you drive the car would help - That is just stupidity in my book no matter what you feel the car is built for.
Until this happens on a wide scale, which I doubt it ever will, and becomes a serious or recall type issue, race at your own risk. While their life expectancy of the product seems to be incorrect (How could we buy into this anyway - its so new that who could have put over 100K in mileage of real driving to test these out?), I cant see any evidence of these parts being "defective" and therefore anyone who has em is screwed.
Summary - Drive hard, keep your mouth's shut about it, and put car back to stock if it breaks. Tipping the service manager helps too... Otherwise drive it like your granny and god bless..
11-12-2003, 12:56 AM
#30
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Let me add a little wood to this fire ..
I notice at only 400 miles that my left front rotor is showing surface cracks from hole to hole all over the rotor. None and I'll say this again, none of the other three rotors have this problem. The Porsche NA rep and dealer are saying that this is normal, yet the other three rotors show no sign of this problem.
I can't tell you the number of times my dealer has ask me when will I be taking the car to the track (what are they waiting for .. for me to take the car to the track so the dealer and Porsche can use the line on me that the rotor needs to be replaced because you took the car to the track), yet it was all cracked up before this.
If this is normal, is anyone who has done track inspections before going to allow the car to pass inspection? Just think of the training that the inspectors have received to look for rotors that are all cracked up like this.
No question about it, Porsche has a problem with the PCCB. Just look at my rotor as the clearest example of the problem, one rotor all cracked up with surface cracks at only 400 miles, yet the other three are fine. On top of it all, this car has had NO track time at all, street driving only.
Porsche is going to say it's normal, yea right, then Porsche how do you explain how the other three or even yet the front right does not show this problem.
Porsche is then going to try to say that it's just the ceramic coating that is on the surface of the rotor that is cracking and it's not the rotor that is cracking .. Then let me ask you this Porsche what happens once the rotor is subjected to extreme heat ... gee let me guess ... early rotor wear and or rotor failure.
Come On Porsche, bring it on!
I notice at only 400 miles that my left front rotor is showing surface cracks from hole to hole all over the rotor. None and I'll say this again, none of the other three rotors have this problem. The Porsche NA rep and dealer are saying that this is normal, yet the other three rotors show no sign of this problem.
I can't tell you the number of times my dealer has ask me when will I be taking the car to the track (what are they waiting for .. for me to take the car to the track so the dealer and Porsche can use the line on me that the rotor needs to be replaced because you took the car to the track), yet it was all cracked up before this.
If this is normal, is anyone who has done track inspections before going to allow the car to pass inspection? Just think of the training that the inspectors have received to look for rotors that are all cracked up like this.
No question about it, Porsche has a problem with the PCCB. Just look at my rotor as the clearest example of the problem, one rotor all cracked up with surface cracks at only 400 miles, yet the other three are fine. On top of it all, this car has had NO track time at all, street driving only.
Porsche is going to say it's normal, yea right, then Porsche how do you explain how the other three or even yet the front right does not show this problem.
Porsche is then going to try to say that it's just the ceramic coating that is on the surface of the rotor that is cracking and it's not the rotor that is cracking .. Then let me ask you this Porsche what happens once the rotor is subjected to extreme heat ... gee let me guess ... early rotor wear and or rotor failure.
Come On Porsche, bring it on!