Les Quam

Watt, if you think your GT 2 brakes are fine come back to Pahrump for the next Porsche club open track day and let me drive your car for a few laps all I need is 5 to 8 laps to turn your pads into cracked garbage. Thats all it took on my previous GT2 and I am the king of cool down laps. If you drive the car to its full potential on a race track the pads will fail end of story. That is unless Porsche gave you the super secret pads reserved only for their really cool customers. Yes your pads are holding up because you are using mature reasonable discretion showing some respect for your car while you are on the track ,others look at the car as a tool to be pushed to the limit, these pads will fail at the limit on a race track, then the rotors fail if you can not recognize the warning signs. I got a full report on your track day from our local master tech. The respectful way you enjoy your GT2 while on the track will not cause any brake problems.

PogueMoHone

Les,

Doesn't everything fail at the "limit"? So there's nothing unique about ceramics in this regard.

AW

Of course there is a limit... I think our point is about the fact that PCCB limit is way below traditional steel rotors. Let me reiterate the key comparison:

- same driver (me)
- 996 TT steel rotors, 30+ track days on same rotors. New pads every 3-4 track day
- GT2 (ceramic). Pads destroyed after 2h of track time. Rotors look questionable but Porsche think they are OK

I was turning 1:45:xx at Laguna. This is an average time that I think would be hard to make with a lot of over-braking.
AW

FixedWing

Ulf Karlsson was getting about 11 laps out of a set of pads on the GT2 at Nürburgring with ceramics. And the Nürburgring isn't considered a brake-intensive track.

I'll have to ask Ulf how many laps he gets out of a set of pads in his GT3 Mk1 (known to be under-braked at the front) but I think it is closer to a season.

Same driver, same track, very similar car.

For me, my first set of cast iron rotors went 21,000 km with minor cracking. The pads still had life left in them. I'm lucky to get 5,000 km out of a set of P90 pads on the ceramics -- and that is until worn out, they are basically useless (dangerous even) after must less than that.

Same driver, same car, same use.

Stephen

PogueMoHone

Arnaud,

All that comparison, objectively, says is that the pads didn't last...for what ever reason. Bad pads can ruin rotors, so where is the cause and effect?.

I hear your concerns but there is enough confusion over this issue, that one should remain open minded.

Les Quam

Colm, that is incorrect that everything fails at the limit. Every component in a car that is designed to also be used on the track is designed to function properly at the limit. Each and every time you threshold brake which at a track like Laguna Seca is about 4 full threshold brakes per lap is at the absolute limit of any vehicles braking limit. On cars without ABS when you lock up the tires you have exceeded the limit of the tires and brakes . When my first Gt2 brake pads failed or cracked I was not even into the abs so I had not even reached the limit of the braking capability. Another example when the first Viper ACRs came out the brakes were failing within a few laps, then we bought fluid with a higher viscosity which solved part of the problem. But now Dodge has a new competition coupe with brakes by brembo which hold up at the limit all the time. Without boring you with my racing background I can tell you from experience in order to be competitve whether in Karts or formula cars or sedans if you don't drive at the limit of both your capability and your cars you will not be competitive. When you exceed your limit or run out of talent you go off track or hit another car. When your brakes fail at the end of a straightaway you have exceeded the limits of that components limit. I am not bashing Porsche here, I am a full on Porsche guy, but they MUST address this issue because soon you and I will be in Carrera GTs capable of 210 MPH. Do they expect us to do 200 on the street or mountain roads? These cars are made with track use in mind and right now they do not have the right pad compound for track use by experienced drivers which is why their own test driver had a GT3 PCCB pad failure in Atlanta. My dealer has stood behind me 100% and warrantied my brakes and will continue to do so. I really believe if you have a good relationship with your dealer they will work with you and if they don't one should find a dealer who will go to bat with Porsche for you when you spend 200K on a car. Also finding the right brake pad compound is a very common problem for all cars in rack conditions.

Hubert

isn't the cause and effect implied by virtue of the fact that the part (brake pad) responsible for the system failure (the pccb rotors) is a part installed, sold and reccomended by the manufacture?

seems to me that prospective buyers were "sold" on the vritual indestructability of the pccb system under any conditions, and especially track / high-performance use.
but now that sale pitch has languished to become a decree of moderate and responsible road going use, and to top it off, it appears an integral component of the system (the brake pad and it's compound) is responsible, and fails, under the use that the original sales pitch proclaimed the pccb system to be made for.
have i missed something?

Les Quam

I do not see alot of confusion here. Clearly if you use your PCCB system on track and street responsibly in moderation like Watt , they are fit for that intended purpose. However if you intend to race your GT2 or GT3 in SCCA T1 these brakes and every pad compound porsche currently offers are not up to the task. The crux of the problem is what happens to drivers with some experience who take their PCCB brakes to open track days and drivers ed and have pad and rotor failure. I believe the vast majority of GT2 owners thought they could take their cars on the track and drive to the limit of repeated threshold braking during the course of a day and not have to replace the entire system. I can take the current viper SRT 10 or a Z06 vette or even my old X50 porsche turbo spend a day at the track, drive the car hard and drive home on the brakes without a problem. In my humble opinion for 200k I was expecting to be able to do that with my GT2 which is not currently the case. And I have the same expectation with my 05 Carrera Gt. To drive it to the track , drive it hard and drive it home.

Sun Ra

Les,

"I believe the vast majority of GT2 owners thought they could take their cars on the track and drive to the limit of repeated threshold braking during the course of a day and not have to replace the entire system. I can take the current viper SRT 10 or a Z06 vette or even my old X50 porsche turbo spend a day at the track, drive the car hard and drive home on the brakes without a problem. In my humble opinion for 200k I was expecting to be able to do that with my GT2 which is not currently the case. And I have the same expectation with my 05 Carrera Gt. To drive it to the track , drive it hard and drive it home."

i think we all agree, but was it the entire system?. how do we define the line between "responsible street and track use" and racing or just outright abuse or neglect?

seems like a good idea to respect the car when a] it had been sold! [see GT2 for sale thread] and b] a new track to me. Todd would've been really pissed if i had damaged the car saturday at spring or tuesday at willow.... love spring mtn btw, it's a fun track, what time you running there in your gt2 ? and which pad are you destroying?. and how many rotors has your dealer replaced?

was wondering which of the 2 commitments you made on the CGT did you end up breaking? assume you only took your local dealer car, to continue that "really good relationship"!!! and what happens to that car on the track? i presume those rotors will be quite expensive.....

hope to see u at spring mtn, thinking about setting up some thurs/fri sessions next year, Rupert says those days are open for rental.

Les Quam

Ok Watt, I did not break the commitment up north, that dealer offered to sell me a car, I did not accept the offer, I never made a commitment to him. The commitment I broke was to you and Colm which was not to waste Colm's allocation. For that I have apologized numerous times, when we meet if you want me to lay down and let you run me over that will be fine at least I know your brakes will work. And if Colm still needs an allocation for a CGT I can replace the one he lost. I did not mean ANY disrespect in regard to your driving skills. My dealer is now using you as the poster boy for how to enjoy a GT2 on the track and not brake anything. In a stock viper or GT2 I run from 1.49 to 1.52 on the full course depending on the conditions. Rupert is a couple of seconds under that in his Z06. In a fully race ready viper I Run 1.44s. Yes it is a great technical track and Ruperts school is SUPERB. Anything the local club instructors told you about driving the track is BS. If you want to have a ball drive a Z06 and learn a ton of skills enroll in Rupe's school it is designed for guys who want to really learn to drive their high end cars and get the most out of them. I probably learned more at Bragg Smith than I did at Skip Barber or Derek Daly or Bondurant. Those other schools teach you how to get started in racing , Rupert teaches you how do drive a high performance street car better then almost anyone else. And its all seat time very little classroom. And GEEEEZ when are you going to quit busting my ***** on the CGT. Now I know how OJ simpson felt man.

Les Quam

Watt, I am assuming you have not taken Bragg Smith course. If you haven't. Take the course he will let you take your GT2 or GT3 or Gallardo or what ever you bring out on the track at the end of the day. His course is better than renting and the Z06 brakes work all day every day even when its 115 without pad or rotor failure. His training is so superb that after a season of karting or open wheel racing prior to racing vipers I would take his class again to tune up for sedans. His school is really underestimated in comparison to the more well known schools.

PogueMoHone

By cause and effect I was attempting to address the "chicken and egg" issue.

Leaving the "***** for brains" braking problems out of it, and assume, for a moment, that there is weakness in the PCCB system, is pad failure causing rotor damage (rotors themselves being perfectly sound or is bad rotors causing pad problems. If it is a pad issue then this would seem to manegable and rotor damage can be prevented. If pad failure is causing rotor damage I don't think that is Porsche's responsibility. If rotor failure is causing pad failure then I think it is Porsche's responsibility.

Overheating the brakes is the driver responsibility and any subsequent damage from that is also the driver's responsibility.

The cars at Leipzig showed no sign of rotor damage and they were "used" on the track. However, they were also well driven without any rest. Frequent braking from 240KPH was the norm.

So why are ceramics suddenly problematic, driver experience?, technique?, knowledge?, consistency of components? or Porsche engineering?.

Les, you are in Las Vegas, play the odds and you have to assume the weak link in all of this is inconsistent driver input.

I don't have the answers but we are far from convincing emperical evidence that the problem is solely due to poor design or inadequacy of cooling.

I think Arnaud and I should compare rotors he has 4000 miles and I have 2000, his are hard usage and mine are easy usuage. It will be interesting to compare photos.

I reserve the right to be wrong on all of this but for me (at this time) it's just not adding up. My only bias is that I have ceramics and if I do have a problem I think Porsche will take car of it. In fact, It seems to me that Porsche is taking care of those cars with problems (and issuing a warning, one time only!). Posts here by some also indicate that.

Les Quam

Colm, the problem is in the pad compound the pads crack then cause rotor damage. This is a VERY VERY common problem in racing or lapping at a pace equal to race conditions. Every brake manufaturer whether its Brembo or Baer Alcon has problems. It took years of failure for brake companies to come up with a combo that could handle the vipers. Now about 3 companies have pads and rotors that can handle vipers for both full out racing and hard recreational track use. Finding the right brake pad compound is one more aspect to setting up a car. No two drivers are alike in the amount of wear and tear they submit a brake system to. I do not believe in fact I am certain that their is no design defect in the PCCB. It is just a matter in my very humble opinion of finding a pad that can absorb the heat. From my experience and I left foot brake I would need to change pads more often than others. BUT the pads should go at least a day on a GT 2. I remember vipers destroying Both Brembo and Baer Alcon pads and rotors before they solved the problem. The issue here is why don't the Porsche dealers stand behind these brakes until they solve the problem and why have they changed the language regarding use and why did that person who started this post lose in arbitration. Both my Dodge dealer and my ford dealer tell me take my viper and cobra to the track as doe's my Porsche dealer. Thier position is you break it we will fix it. Also are you going to let Watt continue to get away with bashing our CGTs? You know I know I am hard on brakes but they have got to last longer than they are now and in my world every Porsche dealer should stand behind these brakes.

mds

Les, I am glad to hear that someone agrees with me about the Bragg-Smith school. Rupert's emphasis on vision is unmatched by the other major schools. Hurley Haywood once told me that when he makes a mistake it is usually due to bad vision. Bragg-Smith is well worth it, multiple times. You get a heck of a lot of track time too for your money.

Sun Ra

for Porsche, how do we define the line between "responsible street and track use" and racing or just outright abuse or neglect?

zat eees de question.....


Les, i will take Rupert's class, you can tell from the track design how much he has to offer! i enjoyed meeting him and love the place. Please meet me up there sometime and show me around!


how may rotors have you used in how many street/track miles??

ps. i don't recall bashing your cgt, i plan to buy one when they plummet in price!!

pps/ Les, please come up to Battle Mountain in June and run the open road with us!!!