The fear is taking hold
06-13-2017, 08:02 PM
#46
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Nice vid, but never put your hands together when turning.
06-13-2017, 09:39 PM
#48
Burning Brakes
At first I was a little shocked, and then disappointed, when I started to read the threads about tracking my 996 after I bought it. Prior to purchasing it, I did what I thought was adequate due diligence regarding the weaknesses of the car so I could make an informed purchase. I knew about the IMSB and bore scoring. I knew engine rebuilds are expensive. I bought a coupe with a 6-speed on purpose, because I want to track it. What I didn't know about were the additional types of failures you could experience on the track due to oil starvation, weak rod bolts, and even overheating. I grew up in the 70s and 80s when 911s were some of the dominant race cars. I envisioned myself hustling abound the track in my 996 enjoying its racing pedigree.
I have gotten to the point where I don't care anymore. I paid cash for the car and if I blow it up, so be it. I will make modifications and be smart about it, because I don't what the engine to fail if I can avoid it, but there are some failure modes that cannot be avoided. Deep sumps and baffles can mitigate some of the oil starvation conditions, but what the car really needs is a dry sump system. There are some cooling system mods that can resolve the cooling issues, although I think a cracked head is still a possibility on my M96-01 engine. There is really nothing you can do about the weak rod bolts without a very expensive disassembly and rebuild, other than avoiding an over-rev condition. The local PCA club has track events coming up in August and November. I am going to run the snot out of it. If it dies, I will park it in the garage and figure out what I want to do with the carcass. I will not be denied my fantasy.
I have gotten to the point where I don't care anymore. I paid cash for the car and if I blow it up, so be it. I will make modifications and be smart about it, because I don't what the engine to fail if I can avoid it, but there are some failure modes that cannot be avoided. Deep sumps and baffles can mitigate some of the oil starvation conditions, but what the car really needs is a dry sump system. There are some cooling system mods that can resolve the cooling issues, although I think a cracked head is still a possibility on my M96-01 engine. There is really nothing you can do about the weak rod bolts without a very expensive disassembly and rebuild, other than avoiding an over-rev condition. The local PCA club has track events coming up in August and November. I am going to run the snot out of it. If it dies, I will park it in the garage and figure out what I want to do with the carcass. I will not be denied my fantasy.
06-14-2017, 01:25 AM
#49
Instructor
Thread Starter
Definitely some great responses. Can't say my fears have been diminished. My car is 99 C2. Pretty stock aside from being lowered and a cone air filter. So no x51 pan or accusump yet. Altimately I bought the car to enjoy it, but also want to enjoy it for a long time without having to put in a new engine or rebuild the engine for more than I paid for the car. The points some made about never taking a car to the track that you can't walk away from did make an impact. Obviously the good doctor made these cars to be driven in a certain fashion, although with all the horror stories on the web of engine's blowing and a million modes of failure, you would definitely think they made the engine from blown glass and said a quick prayer hoping it would make it off the showroom floor. While I haven't done any track driving, she has been flogged pretty good for extended periods of time on the tail of the dragon and blue ridge parkway, trying to keep up with my brother's cayman s and my dad's 997 (I know, the family has an expensive addiction) and the car performed well, except for some unnerving high temps on the tail of the dragon. After returning home from that trip I cleaned the rads out and put in a new water pump and thermostat (albeit the stock temp thermostat) and haven't had any scary needle moving too far to the right moments since, though on hot days the needle does creep more to the right than my Boxster S ever did and I'm still not entirely comfortable with it.
Cuda and Johnireland, some great advice, thanks! I would definitely probably be taking it fairly easy for my first DE (at least I imagine I would be unless that inner Clarkson comes out and screams "POWERRRRRR!")
Tony, I'll definitely try to find his videos! And certainly keeping track of the temps and oil pressure.
Hardback. Definitely not money shifting is high on my priorities, always haha I've heard more than a few stories of that tragedy and hope to god I never make that mistake.
Mp2day. Dude, I seriously admire your good attitude after what happened. Again, my condolences! And if you don't mind my asking, what is your profession?
5CHN3LL I definitely understand what you're saying. While I have no intentions right now of turning my car into a track car I do really like the idea of exploring what it can do on the track. The mental evaluations of risk are tough to balance in my mind right now. I bough the darn thing to enjoy it. But I also bought it in the hopes of keeping it for years. If the worst happens I'd have to evaluate some tough choices like buying a new engine or putting off other goals. Sadly I am not wealthy. Merely a peasant that enjoys imprudent financial decisons like german autos. Also, my spare tire is currently collecting dust in the garage.
Plating, awesome video! That track looks like a ton of fun! Thanks for sharing! You mentioned you've done over 100 track events. What sorts of thing have you done to the car in terms of mods? I've heard from others (outside of the inter webs) how the 996 is a great car to take in stock form to the track, beat the snot out of it, pick up some groceries and then drive home. And then from others that proclaim after a few laps of wringing it out the poor thing will give up the ghost like the old tired and poorly designed work horse they claim it is. Even years before I bought my first P car, a Boxster S, I was always under the impression people beat the crap out of them on the track all the time without issues. Only after entering the Porsche world and being introduced to the forums did I come to realize that there were far more issues aside from the good ole IMS bearing.
Whew. Sorry for the super long post. Didn't realize I'd gotten this many replies!
Cuda and Johnireland, some great advice, thanks! I would definitely probably be taking it fairly easy for my first DE (at least I imagine I would be unless that inner Clarkson comes out and screams "POWERRRRRR!")
Tony, I'll definitely try to find his videos! And certainly keeping track of the temps and oil pressure.
Hardback. Definitely not money shifting is high on my priorities, always haha I've heard more than a few stories of that tragedy and hope to god I never make that mistake.
Mp2day. Dude, I seriously admire your good attitude after what happened. Again, my condolences! And if you don't mind my asking, what is your profession?
5CHN3LL I definitely understand what you're saying. While I have no intentions right now of turning my car into a track car I do really like the idea of exploring what it can do on the track. The mental evaluations of risk are tough to balance in my mind right now. I bough the darn thing to enjoy it. But I also bought it in the hopes of keeping it for years. If the worst happens I'd have to evaluate some tough choices like buying a new engine or putting off other goals. Sadly I am not wealthy. Merely a peasant that enjoys imprudent financial decisons like german autos. Also, my spare tire is currently collecting dust in the garage.
Plating, awesome video! That track looks like a ton of fun! Thanks for sharing! You mentioned you've done over 100 track events. What sorts of thing have you done to the car in terms of mods? I've heard from others (outside of the inter webs) how the 996 is a great car to take in stock form to the track, beat the snot out of it, pick up some groceries and then drive home. And then from others that proclaim after a few laps of wringing it out the poor thing will give up the ghost like the old tired and poorly designed work horse they claim it is. Even years before I bought my first P car, a Boxster S, I was always under the impression people beat the crap out of them on the track all the time without issues. Only after entering the Porsche world and being introduced to the forums did I come to realize that there were far more issues aside from the good ole IMS bearing.
Whew. Sorry for the super long post. Didn't realize I'd gotten this many replies!
06-14-2017, 02:37 AM
#50
Race Director
I might add.... until it overheated at Festival of Speed and possibly blew a head gasket (still in the process of diagnosing things), my '99 Boxste' had 169,000 highly abused miles on it. Many track events. The only mod I did was the deep sump oil pan and baffle. The mod I should have added was third radiator, which I recently put into my '03 track Boxster. So yes, these cars can take a lot of abuse. There are lots of guys that track cars in stock form without the car grenading. A few track events here and there should be fine, in my opinion. If you go heavy into tracking, more mods are appropriate. As said above, though, never track a car that you can't afford to lose. The odds of losing it are low, though, so depends on how much of a gambling man you are.
Palting: Excellent saltwater tank!
Palting: Excellent saltwater tank!
06-14-2017, 08:59 AM
#52
Rennlist Member
At first I was a little shocked, and then disappointed, when I started to read the threads about tracking my 996 after I bought it. Prior to purchasing it, I did what I thought was adequate due diligence regarding the weaknesses of the car so I could make an informed purchase. I knew about the IMSB and bore scoring. I knew engine rebuilds are expensive. I bought a coupe with a 6-speed on purpose, because I want to track it. What I didn't know about were the additional types of failures you could experience on the track due to oil starvation, weak rod bolts, and even overheating. I grew up in the 70s and 80s when 911s were some of the dominant race cars. I envisioned myself hustling abound the track in my 996 enjoying its racing pedigree.
I have gotten to the point where I don't care anymore. I paid cash for the car and if I blow it up, so be it. I will make modifications and be smart about it, because I don't what the engine to fail if I can avoid it, but there are some failure modes that cannot be avoided. Deep sumps and baffles can mitigate some of the oil starvation conditions, but what the car really needs is a dry sump system. There are some cooling system mods that can resolve the cooling issues, although I think a cracked head is still a possibility on my M96-01 engine. There is really nothing you can do about the weak rod bolts without a very expensive disassembly and rebuild, other than avoiding an over-rev condition. The local PCA club has track events coming up in August and November. I am going to run the snot out of it. If it dies, I will park it in the garage and figure out what I want to do with the carcass. I will not be denied my fantasy.
I have gotten to the point where I don't care anymore. I paid cash for the car and if I blow it up, so be it. I will make modifications and be smart about it, because I don't what the engine to fail if I can avoid it, but there are some failure modes that cannot be avoided. Deep sumps and baffles can mitigate some of the oil starvation conditions, but what the car really needs is a dry sump system. There are some cooling system mods that can resolve the cooling issues, although I think a cracked head is still a possibility on my M96-01 engine. There is really nothing you can do about the weak rod bolts without a very expensive disassembly and rebuild, other than avoiding an over-rev condition. The local PCA club has track events coming up in August and November. I am going to run the snot out of it. If it dies, I will park it in the garage and figure out what I want to do with the carcass. I will not be denied my fantasy.
You have 100% the right attitude for tracking your car. Go for it!!
06-14-2017, 12:19 PM
#53
Instructor
06-14-2017, 12:25 PM
#54
Instructor
I hate to say this out loud - well, to put it into words, at least - but I won't be using my 996 for any driving events more stressful than Qualcomm parking lot PCA autocross (not that I've done one of those in 3+ years now).
This is not because I baby the 996 - in fact, I push the car hard every time I drive it because THERE'S A 911 IN MY GARAGE EVERY MORNING. What I am seeing is that this is a numbers game. Do lots of M96-powered cars see track time successfully with no problems? Sure - in fact, BOTH of mine have done time on everything from parking lot courses to "big" tracks.
With the exception of poor Cuda911, though, the majority of failures I have access to (which of course is limited to what's posted online, which may or may not be representative of the population as a whole) seem performance-related. I have two vehicles that perform at more-or-less equivalent levels. We know what it will cost to put a new or fully rebuilt motor in my 996; for 10-20% of that cost, I can drop a new crate motor into my Corvette and STILL come out ahead as far as power and reliability. The rear end on the C4 (running through an auto transmission with racing packs, the trans pressure dialed up so high it bleeds fluid during AX runs, and a D44 rear-end with Jeep gearing, and a full D44 batwing upgrade including new shafts) will probably take 600HP with only some minor mounting point and suspension upgrades (I'm not keeping those composite springs on the car with 2x power going down).
When I got the car, the Corvette was the car I wanted to keep forever (being in my family since new, my mom's dream car). I will still keep the 'Vette forever, but I have come to enjoy the 996 as much in most ways and far more in a couple, and I want to preserve the 996 for as long as I can before I have to make that heart-wrenching decision to sell it as a roller (or, more likely, the nearly as painful decision to drop 1/3 the cost of my first home into a new motor)...
Given the cost of C4 and C5 Corvettes, Miatas, and other cars that make up pretty much the entire autocross leaderboard for SCCA, it makes more sense to me to acquire a track car that is more affordable to service. When I'm dreaming I'm The Stig, am I driving my black 911, or am I driving a stripped, faded red Miata? Not the latter.
You can also BUY a Spec Miata from the Mazda parts counter for less than the cost of buying and track prepping a 996 - let alone the cost of having a spare engine on the trailer...
None of this is an indictment of the 996. It's a machine - in fact, it's on the way to being an antique machine, and I think we can agree that the only machines that never break are the ones that never get used.
There comes a time when you evaluate a possession and determine in what way it is worth the most to you. For me, having my 996 as-is - intact interior, pretty much stock, easy on the eyes - is worth more to me than the experience of tracking it. When I need a car to REALLY flog, it'll be the one I can most easily afford to correctly repair.
Sorry for the novella. Apparently, handling the spare tire in a 996 is a more common muse than I would have imagined.
This is not because I baby the 996 - in fact, I push the car hard every time I drive it because THERE'S A 911 IN MY GARAGE EVERY MORNING. What I am seeing is that this is a numbers game. Do lots of M96-powered cars see track time successfully with no problems? Sure - in fact, BOTH of mine have done time on everything from parking lot courses to "big" tracks.
With the exception of poor Cuda911, though, the majority of failures I have access to (which of course is limited to what's posted online, which may or may not be representative of the population as a whole) seem performance-related. I have two vehicles that perform at more-or-less equivalent levels. We know what it will cost to put a new or fully rebuilt motor in my 996; for 10-20% of that cost, I can drop a new crate motor into my Corvette and STILL come out ahead as far as power and reliability. The rear end on the C4 (running through an auto transmission with racing packs, the trans pressure dialed up so high it bleeds fluid during AX runs, and a D44 rear-end with Jeep gearing, and a full D44 batwing upgrade including new shafts) will probably take 600HP with only some minor mounting point and suspension upgrades (I'm not keeping those composite springs on the car with 2x power going down).
When I got the car, the Corvette was the car I wanted to keep forever (being in my family since new, my mom's dream car). I will still keep the 'Vette forever, but I have come to enjoy the 996 as much in most ways and far more in a couple, and I want to preserve the 996 for as long as I can before I have to make that heart-wrenching decision to sell it as a roller (or, more likely, the nearly as painful decision to drop 1/3 the cost of my first home into a new motor)...
Given the cost of C4 and C5 Corvettes, Miatas, and other cars that make up pretty much the entire autocross leaderboard for SCCA, it makes more sense to me to acquire a track car that is more affordable to service. When I'm dreaming I'm The Stig, am I driving my black 911, or am I driving a stripped, faded red Miata? Not the latter.
You can also BUY a Spec Miata from the Mazda parts counter for less than the cost of buying and track prepping a 996 - let alone the cost of having a spare engine on the trailer...
None of this is an indictment of the 996. It's a machine - in fact, it's on the way to being an antique machine, and I think we can agree that the only machines that never break are the ones that never get used.
There comes a time when you evaluate a possession and determine in what way it is worth the most to you. For me, having my 996 as-is - intact interior, pretty much stock, easy on the eyes - is worth more to me than the experience of tracking it. When I need a car to REALLY flog, it'll be the one I can most easily afford to correctly repair.
Sorry for the novella. Apparently, handling the spare tire in a 996 is a more common muse than I would have imagined.
06-14-2017, 12:32 PM
#55
Instructor
I'd say I wish I'd bought my car years ago but to be honest events came together that allowed me to recover from catastrophe with more ease than would have been possible earlier in my life.
For sure, the smart thing to do is NOT track a vehicle you can't afford to lose. In my situation, the P-car is a third car for us, and if I made payments on a roller for the next few years, as much as it would suck we wouldn't be devastated.
06-14-2017, 12:46 PM
#56
Instructor
06-15-2017, 10:25 AM
#57
Rennlist Member
You hear about failures, simply because in a forum failures make you want to post something. Majority of the 996's are excellent track cars, particularly for the novice and intermediate. Right out of the box. No mods. OEM oil, sump, etc.
Your fist DE? Just make sure your car is street worthy, all maintenance up to date, buy a helmet, listen to your instructor, and go for it. No fear, no worries, no need to do anything else
I've been doing multiple tracks, more than 100 days on a half dozen tracks, from Mosport to VIR, in my 996 C4S. No reliability issues. Here's one of my vids to get you started:
https://youtu.be/nsCo7nww1dc
Your fist DE? Just make sure your car is street worthy, all maintenance up to date, buy a helmet, listen to your instructor, and go for it. No fear, no worries, no need to do anything else
I've been doing multiple tracks, more than 100 days on a half dozen tracks, from Mosport to VIR, in my 996 C4S. No reliability issues. Here's one of my vids to get you started:
https://youtu.be/nsCo7nww1dc
Am I seeing the oil pressure gauge drop to about 2 during some of the corners in your vid?
06-15-2017, 10:38 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
Same thing would happen on my car but only on one corner at Blackhawk. This is why I would not continue running my car. As someone mentioned before, they thought this was from foaming or something in the oil bath, sure makes sense to me.
06-15-2017, 10:56 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
^^ Correct. This happens to a lot of these cars. Some replace the oil pan with one that has better baffles, some replace the pickup in the oil pump, etc. But how one user was able to fix this issue was with a switch to different oil. Which suggests that the issue is caused by foaming/aeration...
I found that quite interesting, since I would have expected that most oils shouldn't have this problem.
I found that quite interesting, since I would have expected that most oils shouldn't have this problem.
06-15-2017, 11:02 AM
#60
Rennlist Member
^^ Correct. This happens to a lot of these cars. Some replace the oil pan with one that has better baffles, some replace the pickup in the oil pump, etc. But how one user was able to fix this issue was with a switch to different oil. Which suggests that the issue is caused by foaming/aeration...
I found that quite interesting, since I would have expected that most oils shouldn't have this problem.
I found that quite interesting, since I would have expected that most oils shouldn't have this problem.
I wonder if the car in the video has a deep sump or not. Would be a bummer to still see such drops even w/ a deep sump, baffles and pickup extension in place.