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i'll be sure to post the dyno graph once i'll have the mod done.
for now you can look at the boxster graph.
as for the material properties, here is what Ben posted on the 986 forum:
"It is made of nylon plastic, which is resistant to oil, fuel and most solvent, and also quite strong (I can stand on it). It is not as stiff as the materiel used for the original parts, why is glass fiber reinforced nylon, hence the need for the stiffening ribs.
It is not molded, but made by Selective Laser Sintering, which is a 3D printing process that creates a part really homogenous inside, but with a rough surface. Far superior compared to the Fused Deposit Modelling used by all the "cheap" 3D printers."
Resilient to oil and fuel means little to me. Can is hold up in the environment that it going to spend it's life in? Last think you want is to come apart and get ingested into the engine? What kind of an RD was done on this before it was released to the public?
The graph shows basically insignificant change it performance.
As Meir said, it's better if I answer your questions in person
First, the plenum is made to order, no need to do a group-buy!
The first prototype was on my Boxster, stayed in for 20 000miles, a trackday and two autocross, the car still racks up miles in the hands of the new owner.
The location of the plenum in the engine bay and the fact that air is circulating inside at all time makes it a relatively cool part, around 70°C is what I measured during the HOT Florida summer.
The original part is also made of nylon, but it's a 30% Glass Filled nylon (for strength and rigidity), hence why I made it with ribs and a thicker wall.
Also, the way the original plenum is made makes it stiffer (two part bonded together). If you look at your resonance tube, it has reinforcing ribs just like I did for the same reason (limiting deformation under vacuum).
Not convinced? Your intake tube is made from a weaker plastic, really thin, and lives perfectly fine at the same temperature (although, not submitted to the same pressure differential).
There are currently 6 of my plenums driving around in the US and UK
Meir's plenum is the first prototype for the 996, it will work but might need some modifications to make it fit better.
It's not just a copy of the original plenum with a bigger hole, I increased the radius between the main tube and the cross tube, as it is proven to be an area of improvement.
And here you have the privilege to see my hairy legs to show you the strength of the plenum. I'm not the heaviest, but I'm still resting all my 175lbs on it.
On the Boxster, the best result are obtained with an exhaust and at least a K&N drop in filter, that's part of why the graph only shows a 3hp gain (the two dyno runs were done a week apart also), the owner of the car is still very happy with the result as he gained the most under 3000rpm, where he uses the car.
Here is a quote from the new owner of my former Boxster 2.7:
With all the mods Ben did the car feels like a go cart. In first and second it just runs to the redline effortlessly. I haven't driven an S but I have driven a couple of 996s and this car feels as fast.
I expect the 996 to react the same as the boxster did, little gain as a single mod (For the boxster I don't sell them unless you have an exhaust and drop-in filter), but a good add-on to an existing list of mods.
Usually, it takes almost a week for the car to adapt to the new throttle body, but the last one to install one reported a difference immediately after installation!
Sample size of 6, with one having only 20K miles. So in another words, there was pretty much zero long term testing before release with very little real world testing since them and the R&D is done by the customers that buy this. Considering how expensive the 996 engines are and the limited testing done (standing on it isn't enough), I would be very cautious to be a guinea pig unless, you have insurance large enough to cover a catastrophic incident (as a business you should have this unless you like to gamble a lot) if/when this part fails.
As a side note, this part goes through one heck of a heat range during it's life if you consider what they need to stand up to (anything between the north pole and the Sahara). AND has to do this for the decades. Porsche did extensive extreme weather testing on their parts. Would not be a bad idea to consider doing the something similar.
Sample size of 6, with one having only 20K miles. So in another words, there was pretty much zero long term testing before release with very little real world testing since them and the R&D is done by the customers that buy this. Considering how expensive the 996 engines are and the limited testing done (standing on it isn't enough), I would be very cautious to be a guinea pig unless, you have insurance large enough to cover a catastrophic incident (as a business you should have this unless you like to gamble a lot) if/when this part fails.
As a side note, this part goes through one heck of a heat range during it's life if you consider what they need to stand up to (anything between the north pole and the Sahara). AND has to do this for the decades. Porsche did extensive extreme weather testing on their parts. Would not be a bad idea to consider doing the something similar.
You have some valid points there Imo, however it think you are missing some very important facts.
This is going to be a long one, so please excuse me for any grammar/spelling errors, as English is not my first language.
1. Ben is not trying to sale anything, and he is not a “business”. He is a Porsche enthusiast (and very creative one if I might add) and a certified mechanic, that works for one of the largest Porsche dealers in the US.
He made some mods to his car, and shared the results with the Boxster community.
He created a short shifter that beats the s**t of any other shifter I tested, including the $500 ones with the fancy brand names.
But since I’m a very skeptic person, I wanted to test it myself before I buy it.
Since Ben lives not far away from me, we met for a test drive in his car. Beside the fact the shifter feels awesome and I ordered one right away, I noticed right away that his car feels different. As an owner of 2 Boxsters (99 base and a 2001s) for the past 6 years, I know exactly how they go.
That’s when he told me about the plenum. I knew right away I wanted one for my 996, and I will explain later why.
The reality as of today is, that there are few Boxsters with his plenum, all are happy with the results, and this is the first and only 996 plenum that yet to be installed.
So nobody really knows what will be the resolute. Yet
As said in my original post, I’m looking for the silicon elbow.
2. As Ben mentioned, the plenum he is making is made of the same material of the original plenum. The difference is that the OEM part is reinforced with glass fibers.
To compensate for the lack of the fibers, his design has thicker walls, and reinforcement ribs.
I personally think it’s an overkill (although the ribs looks cool), since the plenum is probably the coolest part in the engine bay, due to the high flow of cool air thru it.
Although I agree it will be a good idea to test its condition when the car is idling for an hour let’s say, even if it is not a real life scenario.
The reason I’m pretty confident with the construction of Ben’s plenum, have to do with the fact mention by Ben in his post.
On the boxter engines, the plenum is not connected to the air box via rubber/ silicon elbow, but using a very thin wall plastic tube.
If the thing holds the heat, than Ben’s plenum should last longer the life of the car.
3. About “Porsche did extensive extreme weather testing on their parts”.
Too bad they didn’t invest the time to design a better IMS, RMS,AOS.
Jukes aside, I’m sure Ben appreciate your comments, as that’s the only way to improve. By thinking what can go wrong.
Me personally, I have great confidence in this product, and I’m sure that if something will go wrong with the plenum, I will know long before a “catastrophe” will occur.
I just hope I will get the same resounds as Ben and the other guys got on their Boxsters.
EDIT: I cannot recommend on the plenum as I didn’t test it yet, but I highly recommend Ben’s ball bearing shifter.
If you don’t have one already. .
He sold way more then 6, including some 996/997 owners, and i haven’t heard of even one unsatisfied customer.
I don't think I've missed any of the important facts.
You can't say "same material of the original plenum." and then the following sentence "The difference is that the OEM part is reinforced with glass fibers." That means it's not the same material at all. R&D that includes long term testing is very important when developing a part, especially when the part is bolted to the intake. I'm sure Ben is an excellent mechanic and that his shifter works well but that's not the issue here and is pretty much irrelevant in this case. Mitigating liability by testing what you are selling is standard operating procedure in the automotive and pretty much every industry. Porsche knew the liability when they made the choice to go with the IMS bearing or any of the other questionable parts. I guarantee you there were extensive meetings and discussions with real life data before a final decision was made.
"Me personally, I have great confidence in this product, and I’m sure that if something will go wrong with the plenum, I will know long before a “catastrophe” will occur." How do you know this? It doesn't take much material to keep a valve open and the the fun begins! You work on engines long enough and you'll see all kinds of weird $hit that makes them go boom!
I don't think I've missed any of the important facts.
You can't say "same material of the original plenum." and then the following sentence "The difference is that the OEM part is reinforced with glass fibers." That means it's not the same material at all. R&D that includes long term testing is very important when developing a part, especially when the part is bolted to the intake. I'm sure Ben is an excellent mechanic and that his shifter works well but that's not the issue here and is pretty much irrelevant in this case. Mitigating liability by testing what you are selling is standard operating procedure in the automotive and pretty much every industry. Porsche knew the liability when they made the choice to go with the IMS bearing or any of the other questionable parts. I guarantee you there were extensive meetings and discussions with real life data before a final decision was made.
"Me personally, I have great confidence in this product, and I’m sure that if something will go wrong with the plenum, I will know long before a “catastrophe” will occur." How do you know this? It doesn't take much material to keep a valve open and the the fun begins! You work on engines long enough and you'll see all kinds of weird $hit that makes them go boom!
i guess you are right.
only time will tell.
just one note about your comment:
You can't say "same material of the original plenum." and then the following sentence "The difference is that the OEM part is reinforced with glass fibers."
I said the material is the same, as they are both made of nylon. The construction is different, as the OEM is reinforced with glass fiber), while Ben's plenum is reinforced with thicker walls and reinforcement ribs.
So at least in theory the rigidity of both parts should be similar.
but you are right, it will need to stand the test of time.
Fair warning, this may get pedantic, but such is life:
With glass-filled nylon (and all glass-filled polymers, for whatever that's worth), the glass-fill is done prior to the injection moulding. It's not like someone makes a nylon part and then adds glass to it after, glass-fill polymers have distinct material properties than the non-glass filled equivalent. Just consider it a different type of thermoplastic/polyamide. And obviously, yield strength and other stress/strain characteristics all depend on the percentage of glass-fill.
Thus, while the move to increase wall-thicknesses and add structural ribbing is a good idea, it's also by definition a workaround to compensate for lesser material strength.
The takeaway I think should be: it's not the same material, the design has tried to mitigate risk and be as robust/reliable as possible given the material constraints, and hopefully the field testing will go well. The performance gains seem like they could be compelling, so if it can be made economically, this could be a great value.
So it is a gamble. A small one. That was made clear from the start. There is no hard sell or big profits here.There is no arm twisting to buy the Plenum or even read this Thread. It is just an Announcement of a small diy project with an invitation to participate.
It is a project full of good intentions and enthusiasm for the hobby. It may fail. That is also clear. But if we don't try such things (& risk failing), how will we make any progress at such low cost ?
Some of us would like to discuss the details and take that chance. Really, what is the worst that could happen ? Perhaps read the link I gave to Ben's previous (Shifter) project.You'll get a feel for the inventor and his skill level. Pity to dismiss the idea without reading the background evidence.
I wouldn't mind being a test subject. I have the drop in K&N and the exhaust. Ben, shoot me a pm and let's see if we can get another testamonial on this thing from a 996 owner!
The takeaway I think should be: it's not the same material, the design has tried to mitigate risk and be as robust/reliable as possible given the material constraints, and hopefully the field testing will go well. The performance gains seem like they could be compelling, so if it can be made economically, this could be a great value.
Exactly.
I know well the difference between glass filled nylon and the one the plenums are made off, and as I said, this is why I needed to compensate for the lesser strength with design trick (ribs and wall thickness).
The heat and chemical resistance are very close between the two.
You guys have basically answered everything already!
I can understand the fear of failure, especially if you haven't seen the part in person, but I'm pretty confident with this one. The Boxster ones are longer, with a lot less ribs, and so far have survived well and showed no sign of fatigue (not being glass filled makes it more resistant to fatigue).
On that note, look at how much your intake manifolds move when you apply and release the throttle!
As Gelb and Meir said, I don't make a living out of that. I won't push anyone into buying anything from me, and never did. I make stuff because I want them, or my friend want them, then other people want them, so I make more
I also made a great, cheap throttle pedal extension, I thought it was my best idea and I loved it... nobody ever wanted one ahah!
Andrew, I'll e-mail you tonight.
So far, the part haven't been tested, even for fitment, so if you want one, you'd be a guinea pig and will have to figure out the intake tube and PCV vent connection (which is still the main question of this thread!).
I did that for the Boxster's ones, so why not for the 911's!
Bill, nope, I usually paint them outside, it looks better and also seals the surface.
The inside stays bare, you don't see it anyway (it does get really dirty though...)
I had one guy paint it red to mach the rest of his engine bay came out good!
04-01-2017, 12:55 PM
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