Notices
996 Forum 1999-2005
Sponsored by:

LN Engineering Ceramic IMS Bearing Failure at 30k miles

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 04-21-2015, 08:38 PM
  #76  
DrMEMS
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
DrMEMS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 244
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by alpine003
In the end he liked his 996 enough to keep it, even after an accident. He got a great deal on a x51 engine(for a great price) which I would consider an "upgrade" instead of just a "repair". Plus it seems like he got the OEM PSE mufflers with that which is also another great "upgrade".
Actually, I had to pay for the PSE separately.
I also had to purchase several other components for the X51 conversion, such as the intake and exhaust manifolds. I spent several hours documenting the differences at https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...mentation.html .
Old 04-21-2015, 08:53 PM
  #77  
JD ARTHUR
Racer
 
JD ARTHUR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Las Vegas Nv
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by TSMacNeil
So, in a unibody car with the entire engine/transmission shifted a few degrees off-center would have no affect whatsoever?
Makes no sense at all.
I think most of us know there's no "frame" in the car.
Grab a bicycle and shift the rear axle a few degrees out of true for awhile...report the results after a few weeks of riding.
A bicycle has a frame. Let the sprocket represent an engine since it is the power side. The frame holds the sprocket parallel with itself but the wheel is no longer parallel with the frame because you shifted only it. The chain which is like a drive shaft is trying to ben and its destroying itself and both sprockets. The Porsche has no frame or driveshaft and so the engine and rear axle shift together but they both are still inline with each other. After weeks of driving with this situation I just picture worn out tires since they are the only things not in line with each other any more. After reading the machinists post about how the engines are made I'm pretty sure NOTHING is inline anymore anyway. I wish Jake would respond to all he posted.
Old 04-21-2015, 08:57 PM
  #78  
sds911
Rennlist Member
 
sds911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Yes, vivid imagination and admittedly no experience as an auto builder or mechanic. But, let me surround your head in rubber and drive a car into it and see if you have brain damage after the accident.


Or maybe a better example, buildings in Japan that are built to withstand earthquakes -- building may stand but the contents certainly have shifted.
[e.g., "Video filmed during the aftershocks that hit Tokyo on Friday shows high-rises doing exactly that - wavering dramatically without snapping.
"You will get shelves tipping over and copy machines running across the floor," said van de Lindt, but structural damage will be minimal, even when the top of the building lurches 10 feet or more in each direction. "It's like a yardstick when you bend it - it snaps back without any damage."
Hollow walls hiding sliding metal plates are also common in recently built mid- and high-rise buildings in Japan. The heavy plates help dissipate motion." [Source: Washington Post article c 2011]

But, you have a point.

(and by the way -- I've changed my motor mounts and had my transmission mount replaced by the dealer -- and guess what, there is metal there too, not just rubber, so there are only so many degrees of freedom to move).

Last edited by sds911; 04-21-2015 at 09:47 PM.
Old 04-21-2015, 10:23 PM
  #79  
gnat
Nordschleife Master
 
gnat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,913
Received 18 Likes on 15 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by alpine003
One can accept it or not but it's not gonna change what happened but it is at least a record of it. In the end he liked his 996 enough to keep it, even after an accident.
My only complaint is how he is presenting the whole thing and putting all the blame on the bearing. It is entirely possible that there was a flaw with that bearing and it was indeed at fault. I really do believe that is a possibility. I also believe, however, that it is a statistically unlikely explanation AND a trustworthy diagnoses was not done at the time damage was first apparent.

I do have massive respect for him that he put a "new" motor back in it. Most would say that was a dumb move and he'll never see that money back, but he is now in a select few that do more than talk about how special these cars are and that they are more than the sum of their parts. I hope ours never rolls craps, but if it does I hope I'll have the stomach to bring it back to life too (I'm not that attached to it, but she is which means so am I ).
Old 04-21-2015, 10:24 PM
  #80  
sds911
Rennlist Member
 
sds911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

I get my vivid imagination from articles like these, which admittedly may (due to differences in driveline etc.) have no application to the 996, but it is food for thought and should be vetted since no one apparently really knows why the bearing failed in this instance:

"Rear-Ended
Rear-end collisions often cause some displacement in differential mounting or support fixtures. On rear-wheel-drive vehicles with independent rear suspensions with half shafts, damage can be similar to that found on front-wheel-drive systems. In a collision, rubber support mounts and torque arms are sometimes relocated and under tension thanks to twisted or out-of-position mounts at either end. These mounts should be free moving and allow for pivoting at the mounting point. Any tension will create unequal torque, which will impart a thrust or sideload into the drive line, causing a lead or pull. Rapid wear of parts and noise can also accompany this type of problem. To fix this, it’s necessary to reposition or replace the damaged mounts.

Other common problems mentioned by techs included crushed driveshafts on rear-wheel-drive vehicles and broken or twisted leaf spring mounts, shackles or hangers. Problems with side set or axle skew will sometimes require replacement of the vehicle’s differential housing. Burgant suggests that shops always look carefully at the drive-line angle, both at the differential and at the transmission or transfer case.

Drive away or "launch" vibration is also very common following a rear-end collision, says Burgant. This may occur when the rear differential moves too far out of position when the vehicle torque is first applied and may be due to improper drive-line angle or defective springs or torque arm mounts.


Solving Manual-Transmission Problems
When I spoke with a few techs about internal damage to manual gear boxes, most agreed that clutch pressure plates can frequently be damaged on stationary vehicles hit from the front or rear. Finding and repairing such damage is important. One tech said a recently repaired vehicle was returned to his shop suffering from clutch failure. The diaphragm-type clutch pressure plate showed unequal finger position and definite signs of uneven contact with the throwout bearing due to misalignment.

Cracked or broken gears and damaged synchronizers are often the direct result of a collision. Many techs I spoke with said such problems often won’t manifest for months or thousands of miles after the repair, so it’s important to check for damage while the vehicle is in the shop.

"When repairing one of these hard hits, a good mechanical inspection is necessary," says Burroughs. "Insurance companies should be made aware of high-risk items that might be problem areas down the road if they’re not replaced at the time the structure and refinish work is completed.""
Old 04-21-2015, 10:26 PM
  #81  
alpine003
Banned
 
alpine003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 7,697
Likes: 0
Received 26 Likes on 24 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by DrMEMS
Actually, I had to pay for the PSE separately.
I also had to purchase several other components for the X51 conversion, such as the intake and exhaust manifolds.
I would say it's still a good value considering the alternatives. Some people spend the same as you and only get a base stock motor repair/rebuild for the same price. I'd say you did ok considering the circumstances.
Old 04-21-2015, 10:29 PM
  #82  
Flat6 Innovations
Former Vendor
 
Flat6 Innovations's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Cleveland Georgia
Posts: 6,968
Received 2,282 Likes on 899 Posts
Default

And now no one will know if the debris was created by something else failing first... Or if the impact aggravated the issue... Or if it was an engine with misalignment issues.

And the more importantly, what about that core engine?? What if it has a misalignment issue and is reused for another "new engine" and the issue is not addressed?

That's why I always build the customers engine, we know what we have to work with.
Old 04-21-2015, 11:02 PM
  #83  
Imo000
Captain Obvious
Super User
 
Imo000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,846
Received 337 Likes on 244 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by sds911
Yes, vivid imagination and admittedly no experience as an auto builder or mechanic. But, let me surround your head in rubber and drive a car into it and see if you have brain damage after the accident.


Or maybe a better example, buildings in Japan that are built to withstand earthquakes -- building may stand but the contents certainly have shifted.
[e.g., "Video filmed during the aftershocks that hit Tokyo on Friday shows high-rises doing exactly that - wavering dramatically without snapping.
"You will get shelves tipping over and copy machines running across the floor," said van de Lindt, but structural damage will be minimal, even when the top of the building lurches 10 feet or more in each direction. "It's like a yardstick when you bend it - it snaps back without any damage."
Hollow walls hiding sliding metal plates are also common in recently built mid- and high-rise buildings in Japan. The heavy plates help dissipate motion." [Source: Washington Post article c 2011]

But, you have a point.

(and by the way -- I've changed my motor mounts and had my transmission mount replaced by the dealer -- and guess what, there is metal there too, not just rubber, so there are only so many degrees of freedom to move).
Stop typing dude, you are embarrassing yourself.
Old 04-21-2015, 11:33 PM
  #84  
joe-1972
Pro
 
joe-1972's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Lisle
Posts: 557
Received 10 Likes on 10 Posts
Default

Old 04-22-2015, 03:55 AM
  #85  
sds911
Rennlist Member
 
sds911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

No, Nothing to be embarrassed about by asking questions.

I believe Paul Simon summed it up best - There must be 50 ways to kill your bearing.
Old 04-22-2015, 08:42 AM
  #86  
Joe Ricard
Pro
 
Joe Ricard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Gautier, Mississippi
Posts: 544
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Slip out the back jack, Make a new plan stan
Old 04-22-2015, 12:09 PM
  #87  
Imo000
Captain Obvious
Super User
 
Imo000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,846
Received 337 Likes on 244 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by sds911
No, Nothing to be embarrassed about by asking questions.

I believe Paul Simon summed it up best - There must be 50 ways to kill your bearing.
But you didn't ask a question, you've posted a theory that’s based on earthquakes and shelves moving in high rise buildings. This is a technical forum, not a courtroom where stupidity like this is OK. Trust me on this, it's embarrassing what you wrote. Might as well say the bearing failed because of the gravitational pull of the black hole in the centre of the Milky Way.
Old 04-22-2015, 01:04 PM
  #88  
Carmichael
Burning Brakes
 
Carmichael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: The Windy City
Posts: 974
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Imo000
This is a technical forum, not a courtroom where stupidity like this is OK.
You should see what Forcible Entry and Detainer Court is like in Cook County.
Old 04-22-2015, 01:40 PM
  #89  
Cuda911
Race Director
 
Cuda911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Oceanside/Vista (N. San Diego County), CA
Posts: 11,313
Received 443 Likes on 285 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Imo000
The bearing failed because of the gravitational pull of the black hole in the centre of the Milky Way.
Crap, so now I have something else to worry about.

Will lead shielding around my car help prevent this?
Old 04-22-2015, 02:01 PM
  #90  
sds911
Rennlist Member
 
sds911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Imo000
But you didn't ask a question, you've posted a theory that’s based on earthquakes and shelves moving in high rise buildings. This is a technical forum, not a courtroom where stupidity like this is OK. Trust me on this, it's embarrassing what you wrote. Might as well say the bearing failed because of the gravitational pull of the black hole in the centre of the Milky Way.
Actually you are incorrect on several levels. This is an enthusiast forum. Your posts don't have much technical data supporting your points.

You are an expert because why? You can put together your car? You have a degree in Physics or Engineering and are an expert in collision damage?

By submitting a hypothesis it opens up debate. The purpose of which is to potentially help the OP recover money from the person's insurance to help with his loss.

The read between the lines questions on the article is why can this type of damage to clutches, differentials happen from a rear end accident, but not damage an IMS bearing. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Most of your post is fallacious argument with ad hominem attacks and an appeal to your claimed expertise due your wrenching skills, oh yeah and a reductio ad absurdum to boot with your Milky Way comment.

Last edited by sds911; 04-22-2015 at 02:27 PM.


Quick Reply: LN Engineering Ceramic IMS Bearing Failure at 30k miles



All times are GMT -3. The time now is 05:56 PM.