LN Engineering Ceramic IMS Bearing Failure at 30k miles
04-22-2015, 04:06 PM
#93
Instructor
Thread Starter
This thread's topic has drifted. I really wish that I could show that my IMSB failed due to being rear-ended so that insurance would pay for it, but that is just wishful thinking.
To allow pulling the body straight, my engine was removed and reinstalled by my local mechanic. He didn't notice any engine damage, and he obviously knew the car had been hit. Next, the mechanic in Campbell, California, who has taken Jake's class and was recommended by Jake, removed the engine for shipping. He was specifically looking for accident damage and did not see any. Finally, the experienced engine rebuilder in Illinois, MB Motorsports, also looked for accident damage and did not see any.
To allow pulling the body straight, my engine was removed and reinstalled by my local mechanic. He didn't notice any engine damage, and he obviously knew the car had been hit. Next, the mechanic in Campbell, California, who has taken Jake's class and was recommended by Jake, removed the engine for shipping. He was specifically looking for accident damage and did not see any. Finally, the experienced engine rebuilder in Illinois, MB Motorsports, also looked for accident damage and did not see any.
04-22-2015, 09:45 PM
#95
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Actually you are incorrect on several levels. This is an enthusiast forum. Your posts don't have much technical data supporting your points.
You are an expert because why? You can put together your car? You have a degree in Physics or Engineering and are an expert in collision damage?
By submitting a hypothesis it opens up debate. The purpose of which is to potentially help the OP recover money from the person's insurance to help with his loss.
The read between the lines questions on the article is why can this type of damage to clutches, differentials happen from a rear end accident, but not damage an IMS bearing. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Most of your post is fallacious argument with ad hominem attacks and an appeal to your claimed expertise due your wrenching skills, oh yeah and a reductio ad absurdum to boot with your Milky Way comment.
You are an expert because why? You can put together your car? You have a degree in Physics or Engineering and are an expert in collision damage?
By submitting a hypothesis it opens up debate. The purpose of which is to potentially help the OP recover money from the person's insurance to help with his loss.
The read between the lines questions on the article is why can this type of damage to clutches, differentials happen from a rear end accident, but not damage an IMS bearing. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Most of your post is fallacious argument with ad hominem attacks and an appeal to your claimed expertise due your wrenching skills, oh yeah and a reductio ad absurdum to boot with your Milky Way comment.
You are an expert at arguing but most of it is BS because you don't have the faintest idea what the F you are talking about. Trust me on this. You are wrong, this is a technical forum and this is a technical thread. There are lawyers here that actually do their own wrenching and know what they are talking about......you are not one of them. Trust me on this.
. Yes, I'm an expert not because I can put my car back together BUT because I can take it apart and do it over and over and over again, like I have been for the better part of 30 years. BUT I also do have an engineering degree of sort too and been to courts as an expert witness. So......instead of arguing about earthquakes and rearends, why not grab a wrench and start taking your lawnmower apart for starters? You might learn a thing or two on a subject that you know nothing of.
Peace out Cousin Vinny!
04-22-2015, 10:03 PM
#96
Rennlist Member
"oh yeah and a reductio ad absurdum to boot with your Milky Way comment."
Sorry, but ^that^ sounds like it's right out of Harry Potter script...
Sorry, but ^that^ sounds like it's right out of Harry Potter script...
04-22-2015, 10:42 PM
#97
Rennlist Member
Yeah, that does sound like Harry Potter, so I'll use the more common phrase of "slippery slope." Here ya go IMO - this will help you through the large words in the last paragraph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
"Argumentum ad hominem – the evasion of the actual topic by directing an attack at your opponent."
"False authority (single authority) – using an expert of dubious credentials or using only one opinion to sell a product or idea. Related to the appeal to authority fallacy." [i.e., I can turn a wrench, so that makes me a PhD Engineer and I can pontificate on physics, material sciences and parts failure).
"In logic and critical thinking, a slippery slope is a logical device, but it is usually known under its fallacious form, in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any rational argument or demonstrable mechanism for the inevitability of the event in question."
I actually am learning to do work on my car and have done a number of things. Won't ever make me a mechanic, but the point is you are wrong again sir. [Let's see, I change my oil, I change my wheels/tires, I change spark plugs, I installed the 997 shift console, I installed my new speakers, I installed a new oil pan when mine cracked, I own several wrenches, and torque wrenches and other tools -- doesn't mean I'll ever take out my engine and replace my IMS bearing].
Keep attacking, keep name calling cause it really shows your true colors.
While your at it go take a basic course in physics, with particular emphasis on impact, force, and shock damage. You might then understand the arguments above. Here is a link for you when you where maybe you can read about impact forces and parts failure:
http://www.winningwithemail.com/cont...ges/TP0445.PDF
You sound like you are going Brian Williams on us now mr. expert witness that sort of has an engineering degree. What degree were you awarded and from what institution?
"Argumentum ad hominem – the evasion of the actual topic by directing an attack at your opponent."
"False authority (single authority) – using an expert of dubious credentials or using only one opinion to sell a product or idea. Related to the appeal to authority fallacy." [i.e., I can turn a wrench, so that makes me a PhD Engineer and I can pontificate on physics, material sciences and parts failure).
"In logic and critical thinking, a slippery slope is a logical device, but it is usually known under its fallacious form, in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any rational argument or demonstrable mechanism for the inevitability of the event in question."
I actually am learning to do work on my car and have done a number of things. Won't ever make me a mechanic, but the point is you are wrong again sir. [Let's see, I change my oil, I change my wheels/tires, I change spark plugs, I installed the 997 shift console, I installed my new speakers, I installed a new oil pan when mine cracked, I own several wrenches, and torque wrenches and other tools -- doesn't mean I'll ever take out my engine and replace my IMS bearing].
Keep attacking, keep name calling cause it really shows your true colors.
While your at it go take a basic course in physics, with particular emphasis on impact, force, and shock damage. You might then understand the arguments above. Here is a link for you when you where maybe you can read about impact forces and parts failure:
http://www.winningwithemail.com/cont...ges/TP0445.PDF
You sound like you are going Brian Williams on us now mr. expert witness that sort of has an engineering degree. What degree were you awarded and from what institution?
Last edited by sds911; 04-22-2015 at 11:19 PM.
04-22-2015, 11:26 PM
#98
Rennlist Member
Here is the Wikipedia version for you IMO. Is this technical enough for you, or are you Sweet Baby Jeebused again?
Shock:
A mechanical or physical shock is a sudden positive or negative acceleration caused, for example, by impact, drop, kick, earthquake, or explosion. Shock is a transient physical excitation.
Shock is a term for extreme forces that matter is subjected to. Shock is a vector that has units of an acceleration (rate of change of velocity). The unit g (or g) represents multiples of the acceleration of gravity and is conventionally used.
A shock pulse can be characterised by its peak acceleration, the duration, and the shape of the shock pulse (half sine, triangular, trapezoidal, etc.). The Shock response spectrum is a method for further evaluating a mechanical shock.[1]
Mechanical shock has the potential for damaging an item (e.g., an entire light bulb) or an element of the item (e.g. a filament in an Incandescent light bulb):
A brittle or fragile item can fracture. For example, two crystal wine glasses may shatter when impacted against each other. A shear pin in an engine is designed to fracture with a specific magnitude of shock. Note that a soft ductile material may sometimes exhibit brittle failure during shock due to time-temperature superposition.
A ductile item can be bent by a shock. For example, a copper pitcher may bend when dropped on the floor.
Some items may appear to be not damaged by a single shock but will experience fatigue failure with numerous repeated low-level shocks.
A shock may result in only minor damage which may not be critical for use. However, cumulative minor damage from several shocks will eventually result in the item being unusable.
A shock may not produce immediate apparent damage but might cause the service life of the product to be shortened: the reliability is reduced.
A shock may cause an item to become out of adjustment. For example, when a precision scientific instrument is subjected to a moderate shock, good metrology practice may be to have it recalibrated before further use.
Some materials such as primary high explosives may detonate with mechanical shock or impact.
When glass bottles of liquid are dropped or subjected to shock, the water hammer effect may cause hydrodynamic glass breakage.[18]
Go ahead, now, discuss the technical points using math, physics and engineering.
Shock:
A mechanical or physical shock is a sudden positive or negative acceleration caused, for example, by impact, drop, kick, earthquake, or explosion. Shock is a transient physical excitation.
Shock is a term for extreme forces that matter is subjected to. Shock is a vector that has units of an acceleration (rate of change of velocity). The unit g (or g) represents multiples of the acceleration of gravity and is conventionally used.
A shock pulse can be characterised by its peak acceleration, the duration, and the shape of the shock pulse (half sine, triangular, trapezoidal, etc.). The Shock response spectrum is a method for further evaluating a mechanical shock.[1]
Mechanical shock has the potential for damaging an item (e.g., an entire light bulb) or an element of the item (e.g. a filament in an Incandescent light bulb):
A brittle or fragile item can fracture. For example, two crystal wine glasses may shatter when impacted against each other. A shear pin in an engine is designed to fracture with a specific magnitude of shock. Note that a soft ductile material may sometimes exhibit brittle failure during shock due to time-temperature superposition.
A ductile item can be bent by a shock. For example, a copper pitcher may bend when dropped on the floor.
Some items may appear to be not damaged by a single shock but will experience fatigue failure with numerous repeated low-level shocks.
A shock may result in only minor damage which may not be critical for use. However, cumulative minor damage from several shocks will eventually result in the item being unusable.
A shock may not produce immediate apparent damage but might cause the service life of the product to be shortened: the reliability is reduced.
A shock may cause an item to become out of adjustment. For example, when a precision scientific instrument is subjected to a moderate shock, good metrology practice may be to have it recalibrated before further use.
Some materials such as primary high explosives may detonate with mechanical shock or impact.
When glass bottles of liquid are dropped or subjected to shock, the water hammer effect may cause hydrodynamic glass breakage.[18]
Go ahead, now, discuss the technical points using math, physics and engineering.
04-22-2015, 11:54 PM
#100
Race Director
A shock pulse can be characterised by its peak acceleration, the duration, and the shape of the shock pulse (half sine, triangular, trapezoidal, etc.). The Shock response spectrum is a method for further evaluating a mechanical shock.
Go ahead, now, discuss the technical points using math, physics and engineering.
Go ahead, now, discuss the technical points using math, physics and engineering.
04-23-2015, 12:43 AM
#101
Rennlist Member
SDS, dude.....just let it go man.
No one is getting anything from your esoteric points and your defensiveness is getting really old.
DrMEMS, do you have any specific thoughts about what caused the LNE bearing to wear so quickly?
Do you think it has something to do with an improper installation, debris in the engine from some component failing, poor materials or workmanship of the LNE bearing, something else?
No one is getting anything from your esoteric points and your defensiveness is getting really old.
DrMEMS, do you have any specific thoughts about what caused the LNE bearing to wear so quickly?
Do you think it has something to do with an improper installation, debris in the engine from some component failing, poor materials or workmanship of the LNE bearing, something else?
Last edited by Spokayman; 04-23-2015 at 08:51 PM.
04-23-2015, 02:19 AM
#102
Instructor
Thread Starter
DrMEMS, do you have any specific thoughts about what caused the LNE bearing to wear so quickly?
Do you think it has something to do with and improper installation, debris in the engine from some component failing, poor materials or workmanship of the LNE bearing, something else?
Do you think it has something to do with and improper installation, debris in the engine from some component failing, poor materials or workmanship of the LNE bearing, something else?
I don't think it's crooked installation, as I would expect wear to occur right away. Maybe the fit of the ceramic ***** in the races was a little tight or loose so that the ***** did some rubbing in addition to the intended rolling. Or maybe the splash lubrication was not as good as it needed to be.
Maybe if we hear of some other failures we'll see a trend. If anyone else has the same LNE failure, please document the batch number(s) stamped on the bearings, as seen in my original post.
04-23-2015, 12:00 PM
#103
While I quit caring about this story a few days ago, I get sds' indignation. This Imo guy has resorted to personal insults that reduce this forum to the level of oh- so- many Japanese boards.
Disagreeing is one thing, getting personal and insulting is juvenile and ought to be beneath a Porsche forum. I guess it's not.
Did the OP ever say if this LN bearing was installed by a certified installer? Seems Germaine to the mystery. The question the OP just asked ( other LN ceramic failures in similar fashion ) is the other Germaine question. I'd like to know as I, like many of you, have the LN product in my car...but this "technical pissing match" over causality is not getting us anywhere without more facts.
Toodles
Disagreeing is one thing, getting personal and insulting is juvenile and ought to be beneath a Porsche forum. I guess it's not.
Did the OP ever say if this LN bearing was installed by a certified installer? Seems Germaine to the mystery. The question the OP just asked ( other LN ceramic failures in similar fashion ) is the other Germaine question. I'd like to know as I, like many of you, have the LN product in my car...but this "technical pissing match" over causality is not getting us anywhere without more facts.
Toodles
04-23-2015, 01:03 PM
#104
Instructor
Thread Starter
My local shop that installed the LNE IMSB is not a certified installer. They said that they had experience and had recently done the job on several other Porsches (we have a lot of P-Cars here in Silicon Valley). I trust them.
04-23-2015, 01:06 PM
#105
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
I'm sorry but SDS is posting theories that are complete nonsense. He keeps insisting that he is in the right, poor guy has no idea how idiotic those theories are even if he can dig stuff on from Wikipedia. He is embarrassing himself by "sticking to it" and I'm embarrassing myself not being able to not to respond to it.