RGrove

Hi Jake. Long time listener, first time caller (at least to a thread you were involved with). I was just wondering what is considered "too cold" for these cars in your opinion?
Mine is stored in the winter, but once it gets in the mid 30's ill occasionally drive it.
Thanks, and sorry for the threadjack!

Flat6 Innovations

Search the forums for my opinions and observations on cold operation.

As far as what the factory did, only they know that. I have a lot of comments that could be made, but I won't make them.

DBJoe996

Jake - I would run and hide from this thread! This is really going nowhere fast. If and when it comes time to rescue my M96 engine I plan on having it delivered to you in the Budweiser Beer Wagon with a marching band out front.

Chiamac

Well I would't say that so much as far as the band and a beer wagon only to Jakes shop - but that there are only a few paths to rebuilding one of these and both of those paths require the proper parts - and those parts are expensive. Like it or not.

I'm sure the OP, if they went through that much trouble to be cheap, could have also done it the correct way if the client wanted to pay for it and wait for it.

DBJoe996

So...ummmm...what you are saying is this guy is doing it on the cheap....ummmm...because it may still work for about 10 miles....ummmm...and has no practical idea what he is doing...and ummmm...ummmm...ummmmm wtf

mikeborden

From what I have read and gathered they went with Locasil strictly because of cost. Nothing was wrong with using Nikasil, it was a little more expensive, if I remember correctly.


Mike

Chiamac

That's where I was going with it too, or that at the time they thought what they did was good enough and gave it a shot.

Sometimes you can't test for everything and anything that comes up.

Chiamac

Client is doing it cheap, not sure the guy has "no practical idea" as I'm sure they know how to work on engines, but maybe that they have lower morals or something and just did the work so it could go down the road.

Also, I guess that doing things like that is somewhat common (other forums I think talked about iron bores) when clients hear how much things cost.

roadsession

I used to live in Boston.
Daily drive it.
Car used to be parked outside in the bitter cold winters ALL winter long
Winters get single digit Farenheit days.
Over 50K miles and NO bore scoring or cold related damages at all (I did have an IMS bearing let go but that's a different story).

My neighbor -just outside of Boston - same terribly cold winters... (who refuses to join rennlist):
parks his 996 outdoors ALL year round. Daily driver 40miles per day
Over 120K miles on the odo.
Only changes oil (mobil 1), changed an AOS, and spark plugs and air filter, brake fluid, pads.
Everything else is original including clutch and rotors. Cheapest to maintain car he's owned.

Some else wrote "It's a car - not a Faberge egg".

Jayzus.

alpine003

As a lot of peeps had said already, bore scoring is going to be the next IXX paranoia.

Some people will get lucky with it, others won't. I've also known quite a few people, including people living in Norway/Sweden/Russia that have over 100k or even 200k miles on their cars driven all year round with no issues. I also have talked to quite a few shops other than Jake's to know that this does seem to happen to some people driving them in cold climates. Just like the IXX, it seems to be all over the place with no kind of rhyme or reason anyone can really gather with any amount of certainty. Some get lucky, others don't.

Just like with IXX risk mitigation, some will elect to park it during any cold winter to be on the safe side while others will continue enjoying it year round.

Oh boy, let all the threads start again....

Flat6 Innovations

The scoring is definitely something that has no rhyme or reason, except cold being a common denominator. We don't get these calls from Florida, or south Texas, or other warm climates. I have gotten calls from SoCal though, and Tony Callas has a failed cylinder at his shop right now in LA... I think that car came from a cold climate, he is checking now.



This only happens to the engines with forged pistons, and we know why it happens. There's no doubt that winter blend fuels aggregate the issue, but the root of the issue is clearly related to running clearances and piston material.

Once an engine gets some wear on it, and the cylinders go more oval, and the piston skirts start to wear, the components gain operating clearance and they don't die.

I had two calls today, one from a 4.8 Cayenne, the other from a 3.4 Cayman S. Neither guy had a clue what had happened when he called me, but I took the symptoms right out of their mouths once they said a few sentences. I had to keep asking the Cayman owner if he was still on the phone, because he was so quiet. He said that he just couldn't process the fact that I told him exactly what happened verbatim.

Every year the cylinder calls and posts roll in just as spring opens up. The colder the winter, the more calls we get, and the further south they come from. That no surprise as I saw zero degree here in N Georgia for the first time in my life this winter.

I haven't had an IMSB failure call in 2 weeks, but we've had at least 10 cylinder failure logs made into the ledger.

The sad part is unlike the IMSB, there's nothing that can be done to curb this failure at the present time. There was a time when this was the case with the IMSB, then we conquered it.

No preventative will help, and no oil will help. The equation is wrong and till this point I haven't figured out a true way of avoiding this failure.

jumper5836

Mine was driven every day, Canadian winters and tracked every summer since 2003

Every since I've had the car since new it always burnt oil and I've had to change catalytic converters every 2nd year of driving. Aprox 12k km per year.

at 76k km started tapping and noticed it burning more oil then normal, I had my idle tensioner replaced due to squealing and then noticed that sound replaced with ticking/tapping.

at 106k km, my an ignition coil went, I drove about 5km to by shop and had them all replaced, I really noticed the tapping sound from that day onward, the tapping was louder and seemed to be burning more oil, used to go through at least 1 liter a track weekend, started blue smoke under cold startup in colder weather conditions but was fine after it's warmed up. Taping would some times get quieter or stop after running it hard.

and 120k km I had it looked at, #4 scored and piston crown touching head, all cylinders had oil pooling and plugs all looked dirty liky they are burning oil. It burns lots of oil, did one track weekend after this and was adding oil every hour to top up. That was my last track day with it. Smoke every time I started it up, probably topping it up to much.
Had the car dyno'ed and it came in at the same at aprox the same other 2 other 3.6l 4S, pretty standard hp/torque for this engine and nothing special. Since that time both the other 2 4S's that were on the dyno that day did not show any sign of problems and no tapping but both have died since then and had their engine rebuilt or replaced.

Now at 134k km, burns about 2 bars per 200km. Tapping is still loud but seems to go away or can't be heard under load, just noisy at lower rpm. Lots of blue smoke under cold startup but fine after it's warmed up all though it blows smoke even under warmer weather under cold start conditions, might be because of the long intervals between driving it. Doesn't really get driven anymore.

When I do drive it, the car still pulls hard and torque is amazing for this car. I drive the crap out of it to burn out of the gas occasionally. Drive it on hour long trip and have lot of times for 30-60 seconds maybe longer right up there at redline and it just keeps going.
It's probably got over 30-50k km on it like this. no rhyme or reason

Imo000

How about a simple coolant or an oil pan/sump plate heater (like the TDI guys use)? Plug it in at night, set the times to come on 2-3 hours before the morning and that's it. All one needs is an outlet to plug the cord in. The engine gets coldest when sitting over night. Once it's driven and then parked for a work day, it usually doesn't cool down as much as it does overnight. Diesels don't like cold and my DD has been a TDI for over 10 years so I have some experience with how much and engine cools down from sitting.

alpine003

This is what some people have been doing but it isn't ideal nor an option for everyone.

I'm just purplexed as you have some people that have driven it over 100k+ miles in every winter for years without any symptoms and no oil loss between OCI, then you have others that's had issues even with one harsh winter. As with some Porsche owners, I suspect their maintenance like OCI might be suspect and I've found that some often try to blame the car for their lack of maintenance or attention on certain things. This is not to say that you can be religious with maintenance and still not have it happen.

no rhyme or reason...

However I do predict if this issue or the broken timing chain issues blow up, the 996 will always remain low for resale. I just don't wanna see a guy in the hood living on food stamps driving one. lol. A real pity...

Maxtegroom

Im not trolling or getting in any arguments but the porsche is going to be just fine