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One is more than likely the bearing that was extracted while at Stage 3 failure. The other is likely the bearing that replaced the aforementioned bearing.
If so, this further conclusively supports the fact that retrofitting a bearing that is in the process of failure is not wise.
Wow. I think I've been pretty patient I think so far.
I’ve been told:
“Bearings are never that color. Never”
“That’s most certainly not a ceramic hybrid”
“The complaint is concerning a factory IMS bearing, and lots of people have been targeted and accused of things for no reason”
“In this instance the bearing was failing because it was the original bearing”
“It really pisses me off when overly opinionated people step up to make a false complaint. This guy dug up a thread years old to specifically call us out for no reason”
“He’s falsely accusing people for developing and supplying junk”
“This Aussie from down under needs to come up and smell what he’s been shovelling. Either he didn’t have a clue or is trying to spread lies and smear LN and Raby”
And now,
“It is pretty clear to me that you have more than one bearing, or that you have posted photos of more than one bearing”.
Hey, it’s great isn’t it when forums like this one encourage a view which is a little different from the accepted wisdom, isn’t it? Apart from Trent and one or two others, people here have been pretty quick to dismiss everything I’ve posted and claim I’m lying and/or clueless. And what would my motivation be? I’m not a bearing seller or engine rebuilder. I have no interest in whether people believe me or not. The purpose of my post is not to suggest people shouldn’t buy LN products, only to be open minded and check for themselves what is going on with their own car. While I’m not sure there’s any point in continuing to provide evidence which gets dismissed at every turn, I do only have one bearing. The bearing in all the photos is thesame bearing. This is a ceramic hybrid LN bearing, which was installed in my 2001 Boxster S as part of an IMS Retrofit (ironically as a preventative measure).
Another hostage photo, this one showing the damaged ceramic ball Yet another view, pitted and cracked ball top centre Another view, damaged ball on the right
Yes, I could take a dremel to it and open it up, but what’s the point? People who don’t want to take my advice which is to check the bearing (the one in the car at the time) when they find steel debris are welcome to do as they like. Fantasists who want to believe that ceramic hybrid bearings never fail on their own accord can continue to so believe.
If the response of any forum member is to repeatedly dismiss a fair and reasonable suggestion out of hand, perhaps it’s worth asking what might be their motivation for actively campaigning against a different view? And by the way, here's some actual research on how ceramic ball bearings fail (Especially for NuttyProf, it's been written by actual rocket scientists!) http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf
Please cut the bearing, and remove the *****.. The photos are too unclear without doing this.
If you don’t want to do this l will pay for air shipping to get the bearing here, and l’ll start shooting video as soon as the Fed Ex truck arrives with the beasring. l’ll video the unboxing, and l’ll cut it in half right away, non stop with video rolling, and post it. l have to see this first hand to believe it. Thats so far from what l have seen when using silicon nitride for any engine component, not just IMS Bearings.
As soon as the bearing was found with a problem, it should have been brought to the attention of LN, anyway, and l am sure that Charles would have asked for the bearing, and paid shipping, and probably more.
Your “Motivation” is also unclear, but is pretty clear that you have an axe to grind, for some reason. If you didn’t, this issue would have been presented to the vendor first, as it should have been.
If you don’t have two bearings, where is the original bearing? Where’s the installation invoice? l think we’ve been pretty patient while awaiting these things to be posted. Things just don’t add up, as l am sure that you’ll agree.
Inb4 "You've pitted that ball with a screwdriver yourself", hah. No all jokes aside, interesting stuff.
The perspective on the first-posted pic and the later ones is a bit puzzling, which may lead people to concluding they're different. Clearly the ***** are coated in oil, and the shine of the wetness makes it look like the ***** were steel in the first low-res picture. I understand Jake's skepticism, though am unclear about the hostility. I don't think a user has an axe to grind simply because he's sharing his failed bearing instead of contacting the manufacturer and claiming damages - I appreciate any and all data. Also it ensures no incentives were offered to not go public with it - business is business after all and if this is an isolated matter, I wouldn't want it to become public either. In absence of absolute certainty, though, I'd assume that the poster's 'motivation' is simply the free flow of information - this is what the internet is for, after all. Not contacting the vendor first (for a part I don't think he purchased himself anyway?) doesn't immediately indicate malicious intent.
However, scolding the poster and quite frankly publically accusing him of foul play/lying/conspiracy might damage reputations more than just having one of your bearings fail.
The fact is that it appears CBR944 has an LNE Retrofit with a destroyed ceramic ball, which was always said to be impossible. I find it interesting to see why it failed, even more so since only one of the ***** failed. It stands to reason that manufacturing defects are a possibility in ceramic ***** after all, since any other underlying cause would have - on grounds of cylindrical symmetry - affected the other ***** as well.
Inb4 "You've pitted that ball with a screwdriver yourself", hah. No all jokes aside, interesting stuff.
The perspective on the first-posted pic and the later ones is a bit puzzling, which may lead people to concluding they're different. Clearly the ***** are coated in oil, and the shine of the wetness makes it look like the ***** were steel in the first low-res picture. I understand Jake's skepticism, though am unclear about the hostility. I don't think a user has an axe to grind simply because he's sharing his failed bearing instead of contacting the manufacturer and claiming damages - I appreciate any and all data. Also it ensures no incentives were offered to not go public with it - business is business after all and if this is an isolated matter, I wouldn't want it to become public either. In absence of absolute certainty, though, I'd assume that the poster's 'motivation' is simply the free flow of information - this is what the internet is for, after all. Not contacting the vendor first (for a part I don't think he purchased himself anyway?) doesn't immediately indicate malicious intent.
However, scolding the poster and quite frankly publically accusing him of foul play/lying/conspiracy might damage reputations more than just having one of your bearings fail.
The fact is that it appears CBR944 has an LNE Retrofit with a destroyed ceramic ball, which was always said to be impossible. I find it interesting to see why it failed, even more so since only one of the ***** failed. It stands to reason that manufacturing defects are a possibility in ceramic ***** after all, since any other underlying cause would have - on grounds of cylindrical symmetry - affected the other ***** as well.
All l care about is the truth. If it turns out that l am wrong, I’ll take that on the chin, and it won’t be the first time that it’s happened. If that plays out- so be it. I don’t believe that it will.
CBR944 has avoided question after question here, so that doesn’t help with the skepticism either. It’s not that hard to provide a direct answer to a direct question.
At the end end of the day l am far beyond caring about my “reputation”. Character is my concern, and my character is set in stone to never allow anyone to attack me, or what l believe in, and get away with it.
That said, l am actually a 3rd party here as l have nothing to gain, or nothing to lose... Truly no dog in the fight. I haven’t had anything to do with these IMS products since 2009.
...scolding the poster and quite frankly publically accusing him of foul play/lying/conspiracy might damage reputations more than just having one of your bearings fail...
You have this the other way around. When this thread was brought back to life, CBR944 was the one who was judgemental, accusatory, and from my perspective, on a mission to prove a point that “it’s possible we were all wrong” and to specifically pick a fight about an LN bearing. And then when it came time to show actual evidence, the evidence submitted was clearly not good enough to warrant credibility.
If CBR944 doesn’t want to provide proper evidence by sending the bearing in, then we are wasting our time and might as well go and post in the “Chris Harris crashed his T” thread. Because there are a bunch of folks that weren’t there that seem to know the answers as to what happened.
You have this the other way around. When this thread was brought back to life, CBR944 was the one who was judgemental, accusatory, and from my perspective, on a mission to prove a point that “it’s possible we were all wrong” and to specifically pick a fight about an LN bearing.
I respect your opinion but disagree, I think this forum is hypersensitive when it comes to IMSB, specifically LNE's products. But that's just my 2c. I'm not reading the hostility, but acknowledge he is trying to show that it's possible for a ceramic bearing to fail - and that indeed goes against the collective belief on this forum.
You do clearly see in the photo's provided that one ceramic ball has cracked while others are ok, don't you?
It’s really difficult to see. I guess if I used my imagination I can some something there.
I'm not sure if you're serious? Could it be you're looking on a small phone-screen? In my humble opinion it's clear as day thay one of the ***** is not like the others. If you really don't see it, expand this pic to full-size by clicking here and zoom in on the circled area;
I don’t think he’s being hostile either. Probably just upset he needs a new motor. I would be too. The ball bearing looks shiny because it is wet with oil. No reason to doubt he’s being honest. But I also wouldn’t have bought a car that had previous metal shavings, even if the IMSB was replaced. I think that’s playing Russian Roulette.
"If the response of any forum member is to repeatedly dismiss a fair and reasonable suggestion out of hand, perhaps it’s worth asking what might be their motivation for actively campaigning against a different view? And by the way, here's some actual research on how ceramic ball bearings fail (Especially for NuttyProf, it's been written by actual rocket scientists!) http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf"
Interesting study, most likely somewhat relevant to our use, but certainly no direct correlation. The big variable in our cars that's not accounted for in the test, is debris laden oil (surprise). I don't think anyone has "dismissed a fair and reasonable suggestion out of hand". The OP has been asked repeatedly to back up his claims with better photo's, receipts for work completed or to dissect his bearing (Jake even offered to buy him a Dremel tool, or just send him the bearing and he would video the proceedure). CBR944 has repeatedly obfuscated and/or deflected...I hope this gets resolved, but I'm not holding my breath...
Wow. I think I've been pretty patient I think so far.
I’ve been told:
“Bearings are never that color. Never”
“That’s most certainly not a ceramic hybrid”
“The complaint is concerning a factory IMS bearing, and lots of people have been targeted and accused of things for no reason”
“In this instance the bearing was failing because it was the original bearing”
“It really pisses me off when overly opinionated people step up to make a false complaint. This guy dug up a thread years old to specifically call us out for no reason”
“He’s falsely accusing people for developing and supplying junk”
“This Aussie from down under needs to come up and smell what he’s been shovelling. Either he didn’t have a clue or is trying to spread lies and smear LN and Raby”
And now,
“It is pretty clear to me that you have more than one bearing, or that you have posted photos of more than one bearing”.
Hey, it’s great isn’t it when forums like this one encourage a view which is a little different from the accepted wisdom, isn’t it? Apart from Trent and one or two others, people here have been pretty quick to dismiss everything I’ve posted and claim I’m lying and/or clueless. And what would my motivation be? I’m not a bearing seller or engine rebuilder. I have no interest in whether people believe me or not. The purpose of my post is not to suggest people shouldn’t buy LN products, only to be open minded and check for themselves what is going on with their own car. While I’m not sure there’s any point in continuing to provide evidence which gets dismissed at every turn, I do only have one bearing. The bearing in all the photos is thesame bearing. This is a ceramic hybrid LN bearing, which was installed in my 2001 Boxster S as part of an IMS Retrofit (ironically as a preventative measure).
Another hostage photo, this one showing the damaged ceramic ball Yet another view, pitted and cracked ball top centre Another view, damaged ball on the right
Yes, I could take a dremel to it and open it up, but what’s the point? People who don’t want to take my advice which is to check the bearing (the one in the car at the time) when they find steel debris are welcome to do as they like. Fantasists who want to believe that ceramic hybrid bearings never fail on their own accord can continue to so believe.
If the response of any forum member is to repeatedly dismiss a fair and reasonable suggestion out of hand, perhaps it’s worth asking what might be their motivation for actively campaigning against a different view? And by the way, here's some actual research on how ceramic ball bearings fail (Especially for NuttyProf, it's been written by actual rocket scientists!) http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf
Good luck!
Yes, there are detractors to ceramic hybrid bearings referring to old research and technical papers on ceramics that are out of date, but there are different quality *****, and we use the best of the best from Coors Tek:
What needs to happen is the bearing needs to be disassembled and cleaned for inspection. These photos are not definitive proof of anything other than an LN bearing shown full of debris laden oil.The original photo was cropped - where is the un-cropped version. I want to see the whole original photo posted. I still believe the original photo posted is one of a failing original bearing, not one of our bearings and the circumstances surrounding this post are also questionable. A fully documented disassembly will clear this issue up once and for all.
But for sake of transparency, I will be the first to admit, as I have in the past, that we have seen examples of our bearings fail, but again, what I can tell you is that we have never seen a dual row IMS Retrofit fail or even had a single report of one failing. Additional information would be beneficial we we can get a clear picture.
What is the serial number for this bearing? I would also like to see the flange and back side of the bearing.
Did you purchase the car with the bearing fitted or did you do the installation yourself?
What was the condition of the original bearing?
Was the installation registered?
What is the ticket number for when you contacted LN Engineering? I cannot find any record of you having attempted to contact LN.
If you don't want to post this publicly, I would suggest opening a support ticket at http://support.lnengineering.com so that we can get to the bottom of this.
Manufacturers should be contacted first and given the chance to review the facts. In some cases, customers don't like the outcome of our review, however, in most cases, I usually go out of my way to help individuals in situations like this. However, trolling an old thread isn't the best way to accomplish anything but show you have an ax to grind. Again, it's easier to be a victim than a failure and I refer you back to my original post of why was LN not contacted back when this first occurred and why am I reading this on a thread on Rennlist?
I don’t think he’s being hostile either. Probably just upset he needs a new motor. I would be too. The ball bearing looks shiny because it is wet with oil. No reason to doubt he’s being honest. But I also wouldn’t have bought a car that had previous metal shavings, even if the IMSB was replaced. I think that’s playing Russian Roulette.
If one of our bearings are put into an engine that has suffered a previous failure and then the replacement bearing has a problem, there is no reason to come crying to the forums or to LN for that matter. There is a reason we have pre-qualification requirements and it's not to be difficult.
I'm not sure if you're serious? Could it be you're looking on a small phone-screen? In my humble opinion it's clear as day thay one of the ***** is not like the others. If you really don't see it, expand this pic to full-size by clicking here and zoom in on the circled area;
What it looks like to me is there is a lot of debris on that bearing and the oil in it is laden with contaminants. I agree it's hard to take photos of these components, but that clearly does not look like the bearing posted with ball that looked like the surface of the moon.
Without clearer pictures, nothing is going to be accomplished by continuing this he said she said business.
Inb4 "You've pitted that ball with a screwdriver yourself", hah. No all jokes aside, interesting stuff.
The perspective on the first-posted pic and the later ones is a bit puzzling, which may lead people to concluding they're different. Clearly the ***** are coated in oil, and the shine of the wetness makes it look like the ***** were steel in the first low-res picture. I understand Jake's skepticism, though am unclear about the hostility. I don't think a user has an axe to grind simply because he's sharing his failed bearing instead of contacting the manufacturer and claiming damages - I appreciate any and all data. Also it ensures no incentives were offered to not go public with it - business is business after all and if this is an isolated matter, I wouldn't want it to become public either. In absence of absolute certainty, though, I'd assume that the poster's 'motivation' is simply the free flow of information - this is what the internet is for, after all. Not contacting the vendor first (for a part I don't think he purchased himself anyway?) doesn't immediately indicate malicious intent.
However, scolding the poster and quite frankly publically accusing him of foul play/lying/conspiracy might damage reputations more than just having one of your bearings fail.
The fact is that it appears CBR944 has an LNE Retrofit with a destroyed ceramic ball, which was always said to be impossible. I find it interesting to see why it failed, even more so since only one of the ***** failed. It stands to reason that manufacturing defects are a possibility in ceramic ***** after all, since any other underlying cause would have - on grounds of cylindrical symmetry - affected the other ***** as well.
I disagree with you on this. These photos do not prove this is a failed LN bearing. What I will agree to is there is a lot of debris on and possibly in the bearing, but disassembly with clear photos would be required to definitively ascertain the condition of this bearing. Trying to come up with any conclusions from these photos is an exercise in futility.
When there have been instances of defective single row bearings, in every instance there was signs of mechanical overloading of the races, but never has a ball show or measured to have any wear.
I will be the first to admit there is always a first for most everything, but again, why was LN not contacted immediately when this occurred? I would have for one liked to get this bearing back and send it to the manufacturer to try to figure out why, if it did indeed, fail.
You can't take corrective action if you don't know there is a problem in the first place.
11-18-2018 | 11:04 AM
