Green Goblin

Hey Kevin H I wish that I was able to attend those function but it is way far away from good old Utah. There is a strong 928 community there with the thanks to 928 specialis, I hope to attend one soon. I have been researching the 911's for quite some time for my brother and we found a nice 02 C4S for him a couple of months ago. What a sweet machine it is indeed.

LVdell i was on my second cup. I attend some pca drives on occasion and was received at first with the what the hell you doin here attitude but I think they have been coming around and we have alot of fun together. A friend and I formed a 928 owners club here in Utah and we have a good 30 members but we have small turn outs but we are a fun group and we turn many heads when we have a group get together. I really mean it when I say I love p-cars some more than other I guess you could say I am car crazy.

Andy

LVDell

Kevin H. in Atl..

Nice analogy Fred.

If you could have only one plane, and you had to fly your plane long distances regularly in order to compete, would that be a factor in choosing the F16 over the P51?

I like to travel in my 911.
I appreciate the additional space (3" longer wheelbase, I'm tall) and better climate control in the 996, and I quess some would say, "refinement".
But when I drive hard, the car is still, a 911.

I also find a lot to love about each and every model of the 911.

Kevin H. in Atl..

Hey Andy,
We've had people drive from Miami, Texas, Michigan, Connecticut, NY, Canada, etc at our NC meets.
And we've had folks fly in from California and the UK!
During our little 7 car caravan coming back down to Atlanta, we had several Sharks mosey by........
Every Shark driver acknowledged our Boxster/911 caravan, and we gladly returned the

BruceP

I wasn't quarreling with your numbers, and if you doubt mine you can go ahead and find better ones. And I don't need a lecture from you on how to conduct a debate, nor do I see where it says that you're the relevance sheriff. My citation of other car manufacturer's numbers was context for taking issue with people who believe that the 996 was "mass produced", and to defend my position that 993 valuations are - using this term in the technical sense that economists use it - irrational. Context. It's an excellent approach to resolving subjective debates, which this is. Try it sometime.

Green Goblin

You cant dispute that the 996 is over procuced after seeing those numbers but I have heard some say that the 993 is WAY better built than the 996, I dont think that that is the case they seem to be the same quality to me. It amazes me at the pride of the 911 community against other 911's, but I think it happens in the 928 community also.

Andy

Kevin H. in Atl..

I wouldn't consider my questioning one of your statements "lecturing".

I just think most of those who are reading or participating in this discussion of 993 values vs 996 values, realize that when someone refers to the 996 as being "mass produced", it is in direct comparison to the production numbers of the 993 and not BMW Z3s.

That's all I was saying.
Didn't mean to offend.

kilrgt

Naw not selling because its not a real Porsche, its replacement has two Turbos....Nuf said.

BruceP

Not offended, but thanks. I just don't get why people are so hard headed about this subject. By any objective measure, we're privileged to own a limited-production, iconic sports car (you have to admit that the list of more exclusive cars is short, and a lot of them end in 'i'). I think that self-hating 996 owners, wherever they may be, are halfway the authors of their own depreciation. Mark me down as being in the 'love 'em all' camp. Porsche was in many ways forced to make radical changes to the original formula. I love them for deciding to try to keep the essence of it, rather than use the opportunity to toss it altogether and build something much less interesting. The added volume was a product of broader appeal and the necessity to pay off all those dev costs. If you were to spend some time in the automotive marketing world and see how much damage focus group thinking can do - context again - you'd be very forgiving of those Porsche guys... unless your engine blew up, of course.

Kidding Del.

Anyway, sorry for the speechmaking.

LVDell

**spoken as in the scene in Top Gun after the introductory classroom**

No no Bruce, there's two L's in Dell. :toorder:

BruceP

Oh, crap. Spelling mistake AND incisive pop culture reference.

I will consider myself schooled.

10 GT3

Not really. Despite the different look of the car, only 15% was new from the 964 before it and almost all you could easlily see from the outside of the car. They 95' engine was a carryover 964 (same bottom end, heads, intake, etc.) with a freer flowing dual exhaust. Despite the 964, looking like its predecessor, it was actually 85% new. Yes the 993 rear suspension was all new from the 964, but the actual chassis was really a slightly modified 964 as the current 997 chassis is a slightly modified 996. Porsche now plans an interesting game. When they come out with an all new chassis, they make it look like the car before, while the greatest styling changes are done with the least amount of chassis changes. Expect the 998 to look like the 997, but be drastically different underneath.

vjd3

Porsches are about performance but they are also about aesthetics. I think Porsche made a mistake when they debuted the 996 without the sexy curves of the 993 and earlier 911. They also made a mistake making the front end resemble the Boxster. That, coupled with the "modern" interior and the resulting complaints about the plasticness and similarity to the entry-level Boxster interior was another strike against the car. Then take the classic air-cooled sound of the 911 and compare it to the sound of the original 996 motor, and that turned people who have owned 911s before off further.

If Porsche had stuck the water-cooled 996 engine into the 993 body shell, I think people would have been much more receptive to the car.

And look how Porsche reacted; they stuck the Turbo lights on the 996 in 2002 and that car fared better, because it doesn't resemble the Boxster so much. Then they put the curves back onto the 997, and that won more favor from the 993 crowd. Take a look at the tires they are putting on the Boxsters now, they are taller profile and look awful, but they ride better. It also distances the Boxster from the 911, which they should've done all along.

I've owned a lot of 911s ... my first was a 1980 911SC, I've owned 3.2 Carreras, an 87 930, numerous 993s, a 99 996 cab and an 02 996 Targa. Having been driving 911s for the past 17 years, the 993 feels the most like an old-school 911, with good performance and good AC, but retaining the classic gauge, the sound of the air-cooled motor and the curves. That is the appeal of the 993, and that's why a lot of the 993 guys are so vocal about preferring the 993. The 996 is quicker, handles better ... but the 993 feels like its roots are back with the original 901, and that will always appeal to people ... for the original character of the 911, the 993 was the pinnacle of it. No one's prizing or collecting the last of the 964s, and I don't think the last of the 996's is particularly sought after, either. The 993 was the end of the air-cooled era and it will always be a little bit special.

The 996 and the 997 and whatever comes later will always out perform the 993 and all the earlier 911s, that's the tradition. But the 993 will always retain that character the newer car lost in favor of more modern production, better economics and, ultimately, higher production numbers.

I liked my 996s, but I feel more at home with the 993.

Green Goblin

vjd3 well said I cant believe that Porsche put the 911 front end on the boxter. I still try to determine which one is headed toward me a boxter or the 911.

Its like what Merc did with the c-class and made it look like the s-class.

stupid stupid stupid

Andy

TD in DC

You know, I sorta disagree.

From an esthetic standpoint (ok, I used to be an architect, so bear with me), the 996 (and really the original '99 to '01) was more "pure" than either the later 996 ('02-'04) or, gasp, the 997. In the early 996, there was hardly a staight line on the whole car: every line was fluid and organic, and this theme carried through from the exterior right on into the interior. The car looked like it was liquid that had been pulled by the wind, and, IMO, the narrowbody version was the truest rendition of this concept. Even the taco wing spoiler carried this consistent theme . . . The early 996 aerokit 996s are truly a thing of beauty from an conceptual standpoint (I personally like the result as well). If you spend some time looking at each of the lines of the early 996, including in the interior, you can see the baroque ovals and forms that are worked through the entire car. The headlights were also "pulled" up the car along with this same concept.

When the "update" came along, they exaggerated the headlights, which still carry the theme and look good in my opinion. However, they introduced more rectalinear elements in the front bumper and side skirts, which, in my opinion, departed from the design concept unnecessarily. Don't get me wrong, I still think they look good (I have one), but it wasn't as pure.

Then comes the 997. Now, don't get me wrong, but, from a conceptual standpoint, the 997 is no longer consistent. Rather, the 997 is a deliberate throwback to the past, that is partially, but not fully IMHO, successful.

Now, the round headlights are, from a conceptual standpoint, inconsistent, and they are a rigidly pure form (a circle) that is plastered onto a more fluid and graceful line of the body. The widebody cars can, from certain angles, look vulgar as well because they no longer flow with the "fluid" lines of the rest of the car (which still looks like a 996 apart from headlights and hip "bulges"), which is very unlike the hippy cars of the past (like the 993) where the hips looked more integral to the car rather than "tacked" on. I do really like what they did with the diagonal line, lights and rear spoiler of the 997 . . .beautiful.

The interior is now a contrast, and absolutely inconsistent with the design concept of the exterior. Of course, that is not necessarily wrong, for good design frequently has contrasts, as does food, wine, etc . . . The interior now is rectalinear, in a throwback reference to the interiors of Carreras and SCs. Line them up side by side and see . . . but nothing is flowing.

Now, I like all Porsches, but I think they can do better than the 997 (I am sure they will), and I think that the 996s are underappreciated at the moment, just as i think 964s are underappreciated.

Just my thoughts.