Engine Replacement V
02-13-2006, 07:02 AM
#106
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Bob - The information you supplied about the engine failures by year IS very interesting. As you have already mentioned a couple of times, unfortunately there are not enough data points to draw any statistically valid conclusions about the 996 engines in general, or for the years specified. I can only imagine the amount of time and effort you have had to put in to gather the data.
I wanted you to know that I appreciate those efforts. While there have been times that I haven't agreed with your opinions, I do respect them. I am sure that all of us here hope that we never have to go through the process you experienced. All in all, I do admire the way you have handled the onslaught of criticism along the way, while still maintaining your sense of humor.
I wanted you to know that I appreciate those efforts. While there have been times that I haven't agreed with your opinions, I do respect them. I am sure that all of us here hope that we never have to go through the process you experienced. All in all, I do admire the way you have handled the onslaught of criticism along the way, while still maintaining your sense of humor.
02-13-2006, 08:43 AM
#107
How can you say within the last couple of posts that "the results are by no means definite or an indication of anything.".and then say " it is obviously clear that there are engine issues with the 996" Can you see the non-sequitir?
I believe what Bob was saying was that there's not enough data to form a definitive conclusion, but 85 blown engines on relatively new cars is enough evidence to suggest that there are engine issues. I just visited popular Vette and Viper forums and did a search on blown engines, and I came up with just a few threads with almost no responses from other posters. The only other forums to have lots of threads on blown engines were the M3 forums, and of course BMW initiated a recall. So I don't believe that it's a stretch to say that there's a problem with 996 engines. What we don't know is just how widespread this problem is, and unfortunately we'll probably never know .
I believe what Bob was saying was that there's not enough data to form a definitive conclusion, but 85 blown engines on relatively new cars is enough evidence to suggest that there are engine issues. I just visited popular Vette and Viper forums and did a search on blown engines, and I came up with just a few threads with almost no responses from other posters. The only other forums to have lots of threads on blown engines were the M3 forums, and of course BMW initiated a recall. So I don't believe that it's a stretch to say that there's a problem with 996 engines. What we don't know is just how widespread this problem is, and unfortunately we'll probably never know .
02-13-2006, 02:05 PM
#108
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Here's my take on this, (FWIW).
1) There is a problem with some of the M96 engines. That's not news, Porsche did not hesitate to replace some of them. I think it is also clear that the problems were more common in earlier cars (Boxster) which suffered from the faulty casting. Those problems surfaced early on and Porsche did the right thing by replacing the engines.
2) Porsche has also replaced some 996 engines - it is not apparent what went wrong. Some failed after the warranty some before. I think the question is whether the defect is isolated or related to some flaw in the manufacturing or even the design itself. If the latter, then it is suprising that PAG does not offer an extended warranty the way BMW did. OTOH engines which failed from abuse, or fasiled after being rebuilt by someone other than the factory are not eligible for warranty coverage. I cannot and will not blame Porsche for taking *that* stance. No manufacturer would.
3) It is interesting that failures have been reported with the M96 engine whereas the M64 engine (which is not without some issues of its own) has been very reliable. Note that the M64 engine is the base for all the 964's, the 993's and the 996 GT2, GT3 and Twin Turbo. That's a lot of engines since it has been in use since 1989 (964). A search for blown 3.6 liter M64 engines which fail under mysterious circumstances turns up nothing. This suggests that there is a significant difference between the newer M96 design used in the the Boxster/996/997 and the proven M64 which lives on in the 997 TT and 997GT3 and all the Cup and LeMans race cars.
4) So, engines failed. Natural causes or not? In most cases Porsche replaced the engine under warranty. If there were know defects iin certain engines only, then Porsche did the right thing. The gray area is those that were not covered. That's hard to figure out usinig any kind of anecdotal statistics.
Best,
1) There is a problem with some of the M96 engines. That's not news, Porsche did not hesitate to replace some of them. I think it is also clear that the problems were more common in earlier cars (Boxster) which suffered from the faulty casting. Those problems surfaced early on and Porsche did the right thing by replacing the engines.
2) Porsche has also replaced some 996 engines - it is not apparent what went wrong. Some failed after the warranty some before. I think the question is whether the defect is isolated or related to some flaw in the manufacturing or even the design itself. If the latter, then it is suprising that PAG does not offer an extended warranty the way BMW did. OTOH engines which failed from abuse, or fasiled after being rebuilt by someone other than the factory are not eligible for warranty coverage. I cannot and will not blame Porsche for taking *that* stance. No manufacturer would.
3) It is interesting that failures have been reported with the M96 engine whereas the M64 engine (which is not without some issues of its own) has been very reliable. Note that the M64 engine is the base for all the 964's, the 993's and the 996 GT2, GT3 and Twin Turbo. That's a lot of engines since it has been in use since 1989 (964). A search for blown 3.6 liter M64 engines which fail under mysterious circumstances turns up nothing. This suggests that there is a significant difference between the newer M96 design used in the the Boxster/996/997 and the proven M64 which lives on in the 997 TT and 997GT3 and all the Cup and LeMans race cars.
4) So, engines failed. Natural causes or not? In most cases Porsche replaced the engine under warranty. If there were know defects iin certain engines only, then Porsche did the right thing. The gray area is those that were not covered. That's hard to figure out usinig any kind of anecdotal statistics.
Best,
02-13-2006, 02:12 PM
#109
Chandler!
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Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
Here's my take on this, (FWIW).
1) There is a problem with some of the M96 engines. That's not news, Porsche did not hesitate to replace some of them. I think it is also clear that the problems were more common in earlier cars (Boxster) which suffered from the faulty casting. Those problems surfaced early on and Porsche did the right thing by replacing the engines.
2) Porsche has also replaced some 996 engines - it is not apparent what went wrong. Some failed after the warranty some before. I think the question is whether the defect is isolated or related to some flaw in the manufacturing or even the design itself. If the latter, then it is suprising that PAG does not offer an extended warranty the way BMW did. OTOH engines which failed from abuse, or fasiled after being rebuilt by someone other than the factory are not eligible for warranty coverage. I cannot and will not blame Porsche for taking *that* stance. No manufacturer would.
3) It is interesting that failures have been reported with the M96 engine whereas the M64 engine (which is not without some issues of its own) has been very reliable. Note that the M64 engine is the base for all the 964's, the 993's and the 996 GT2, GT3 and Twin Turbo. That's a lot of engines since it has been in use since 1989 (964). A search for blown 3.6 liter M64 engines which fail under mysterious circumstances turns up nothing. This suggests that there is a significant difference between the newer M96 design used in the the Boxster/996/997 and the proven M64 which lives on in the 997 TT and 997GT3 and all the Cup and LeMans race cars.
4) So, engines failed. Natural causes or not? In most cases Porsche replaced the engine under warranty. If there were know defects iin certain engines only, then Porsche did the right thing. The gray area is those that were not covered. That's hard to figure out usinig any kind of anecdotal statistics.
Best,
1) There is a problem with some of the M96 engines. That's not news, Porsche did not hesitate to replace some of them. I think it is also clear that the problems were more common in earlier cars (Boxster) which suffered from the faulty casting. Those problems surfaced early on and Porsche did the right thing by replacing the engines.
2) Porsche has also replaced some 996 engines - it is not apparent what went wrong. Some failed after the warranty some before. I think the question is whether the defect is isolated or related to some flaw in the manufacturing or even the design itself. If the latter, then it is suprising that PAG does not offer an extended warranty the way BMW did. OTOH engines which failed from abuse, or fasiled after being rebuilt by someone other than the factory are not eligible for warranty coverage. I cannot and will not blame Porsche for taking *that* stance. No manufacturer would.
3) It is interesting that failures have been reported with the M96 engine whereas the M64 engine (which is not without some issues of its own) has been very reliable. Note that the M64 engine is the base for all the 964's, the 993's and the 996 GT2, GT3 and Twin Turbo. That's a lot of engines since it has been in use since 1989 (964). A search for blown 3.6 liter M64 engines which fail under mysterious circumstances turns up nothing. This suggests that there is a significant difference between the newer M96 design used in the the Boxster/996/997 and the proven M64 which lives on in the 997 TT and 997GT3 and all the Cup and LeMans race cars.
4) So, engines failed. Natural causes or not? In most cases Porsche replaced the engine under warranty. If there were know defects iin certain engines only, then Porsche did the right thing. The gray area is those that were not covered. That's hard to figure out usinig any kind of anecdotal statistics.
Best,
Nice summary Bob.
Rob
02-13-2006, 03:14 PM
#110
Originally Posted by riad
Anything after this post is beating a dead horse (or 320 horses as the case may be).
Nice summary Bob.
Rob
Nice summary Bob.
Rob
02-13-2006, 03:51 PM
#111
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Originally Posted by fast1
It would be interesting to compare the number of blown engines on '02 M3s, I was the owner of one, and the number of blown engines on 996s. BMW reacted very quicky to the problem, and did a massive recall to correct the problem. They also extended the warranty on those rebuilt engines.
02-13-2006, 04:08 PM
#112
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Note that the M64 engine is the base for all the 964's, the 993's and the 996 GT2, GT3 and Twin Turbo.
General specifications
Record last updated 05 / 02 / 2005
Country of origin Germany
Years of production 2001 - 2003
Numbers built N/A
Body design N/A
Weight 1100 kilo / 2425.1 lbs
Drivetrain
Engine M96/70 B 6
Engine Location Rear , longitudinally mounted
Displacement 3.598 liter / 219.6 cu in
Valvetrain 4 valves / cylinder, DOHC
Fuel feed Bosch Motronic MS 3.1 Fuel injection
Aspiration Naturally Aspirated
Gearbox G96/61 6 speed Manual
Drive Rear wheel drive
Performance figures
Power 445 bhp / 332 KW @ 8250 rpm
Torque 405 Nm / 299 ft lbs @ 7200 rpm
BHP/Liter 124 bhp / liter
Power to weight ratio 0.4 bhp / kg
Top Speed N/A
0-60 mph Acceleration N/A
02-13-2006, 07:18 PM
#113
Chandler!
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Originally Posted by gravedgr
BMW did NOT act fast on the M3 engine issue. I was also an '02 owner and watched the debacle unfold on the internet for a long time before the manufacture did anything about it.
02-13-2006, 10:17 PM
#114
Three Wheelin'
You know there is something to be said about avoiding new models. I bought a BMW 530i in 1975 that was full of all kinds of trouble. I was on a first name basis with the local tow company.
So maybe 1999 and 2002 are years to avoid in the 996. I lurked for quite awhile on this forum gleaning lots of info and taking some posts with a grain of salt before I bought a used 996.The same old senario plays out, the new model runs have trouble and the manufacturers are caught by surprise and have a lag time in fixing the problems.You find a lot of these models on the used market and if they are not CPO'd by Porsche you ought to beware!!!
So maybe 1999 and 2002 are years to avoid in the 996. I lurked for quite awhile on this forum gleaning lots of info and taking some posts with a grain of salt before I bought a used 996.The same old senario plays out, the new model runs have trouble and the manufacturers are caught by surprise and have a lag time in fixing the problems.You find a lot of these models on the used market and if they are not CPO'd by Porsche you ought to beware!!!
02-13-2006, 10:19 PM
#115
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Originally Posted by tmonkey
Add mine to your stats. My '99 C2 is in for a new engine at 42,000 miles. Dealer thinks it's a porous block. Porsche USA are picking up the new engine leaving me $6,500 for installation, cooling system and a few odds and ends (including the coolant tank).
Sorry about your failure, but I spent only $1000 on labor for remove and replacement of motor.
Joe
02-13-2006, 11:06 PM
#116
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Ross - yes that is the case (literally). The designation changed when they went to liquid cooling. The true dry sump engine in the Gt2/2 and Turbo derives from the M64 engine the case is more robust and more costly than the new engine.
02-14-2006, 07:42 AM
#117
Drifting
hi,
just ad my few cents, but over 40 boxter motors have been replaced by a local dealer here in sydney and over 30 996 motors have been replaced.
i know this because we know the workshop manager at this dealership very well. infact we use to work with him. he wont give me specifics on whats going on because even he doesnt know. porsche has told them not to open up the engines but just send them back. and there is no more warranty on up to 2000 model any more. pretty slack if you ask me.
porsche should really bite the bullet and replace the motors because it is their fault this is happening. its all because bean counters run porsche now and any chance there is to save a few cents they will do it. really they should have thrown out all of the defected blocks they had to sleeve(it would have cost a lot of money then,but it would have saved them money now. not only with the money they are loosing with replacing these engines but also the long term customers they are loosing.)
all i can say is poor effort.
Sean
just ad my few cents, but over 40 boxter motors have been replaced by a local dealer here in sydney and over 30 996 motors have been replaced.
i know this because we know the workshop manager at this dealership very well. infact we use to work with him. he wont give me specifics on whats going on because even he doesnt know. porsche has told them not to open up the engines but just send them back. and there is no more warranty on up to 2000 model any more. pretty slack if you ask me.
porsche should really bite the bullet and replace the motors because it is their fault this is happening. its all because bean counters run porsche now and any chance there is to save a few cents they will do it. really they should have thrown out all of the defected blocks they had to sleeve(it would have cost a lot of money then,but it would have saved them money now. not only with the money they are loosing with replacing these engines but also the long term customers they are loosing.)
all i can say is poor effort.
Sean
02-14-2006, 09:11 AM
#118
Drifting
Originally Posted by riad
I had a order for a 2001 330ci (first year the 330 was introduced) they delayed this car for six months because the engines were imploding... I took my deposit back.
Wonder why BMW was having problems with the exact same engine in the coupe/cabriolet?
02-14-2006, 12:41 PM
#119
JET,
Does the workshop manager know how many 996s and 986s they sold in their life cycle at that dealership? That might give us some better numbers to work with as to the severity of the problem... as car buyers usually return to the same dealers they bought the car from for warranty work...
Does the workshop manager know how many 996s and 986s they sold in their life cycle at that dealership? That might give us some better numbers to work with as to the severity of the problem... as car buyers usually return to the same dealers they bought the car from for warranty work...
02-14-2006, 01:05 PM
#120
Chandler!
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Originally Posted by GSIRM3
That's interesting because that same engine had been used in the sedan (330i) for about a year prior to the introduction of the coupe and cabriolet with absolutely no problems.
Wonder why BMW was having problems with the exact same engine in the coupe/cabriolet?
Wonder why BMW was having problems with the exact same engine in the coupe/cabriolet?