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Not sure what your definition of soon is, but maybe when it's available you can contribute to the thread by posting a dyno sheet - I like that form of marketing a lot better than THE ONLY KIND I have seen you post.... ever
I love that zbomb liked this. He is like guilty as charged! haha. I get where he is coming from too and I felt the same way so I just called Jake to talk to him, from there I was sold on FSI and LN. Best in the biz.
Not sure what your definition of soon is, but maybe when it's available you can contribute to the thread by posting a dyno sheet - I like that form of marketing a lot better than THE ONLY KIND I have seen you post.... ever.
More than likely you won’t get the dyno chart that you are looking for. Setting standards across the board isn’t something that you’ll see from FSI in most cases, since all the development and the target market is their engines.
Jake is big on not making claims that can be picked apart and argued with when applied to non- FSI engines, or even older FSI engines that are 2-3 generations behind the current and future offerings.
These have been built in house at FSI for a while and sold when they had time to make them. As the backlog is slowly being worked off more of these items will be available through LN. A few of them will be released at Black Friday this year.
With so much false advertising and outright lies being spread across the board it is unlikely that the FSI products will ever have publicly posted graphs. Claims that aren’t made can’t be challenged and last time I checked the products didn’t need claims to be made for demand to be at least double what can be supplied. This may not make sense to you, or even to me but it is the way that it is and no one will ever change Jake’s mind. If someone doesn’t like it, there’s always the other guy that will appreciate it and buy it.
Where I came from used dyno graphs as their biggest sales tool so it blows my mind to see the opposite in place here. I also see that his idea of not showing the competition what he can do is valuable, since they can just lie and make a graph that shows even more just to try to trump things to make themselves look better. The stories he has told me of this happening back during the aircooled days were very enlightening in regard to understanding his reasons for things.
More than likely you won’t get the dyno chart that you are looking for. Setting standards across the board isn’t something that you’ll see from FSI in most cases, since all the development and the target market is their engines.
Jake is big on not making claims that can be picked apart and argued with when applied to non- FSI engines, or even older FSI engines that are 2-3 generations behind the current and future offerings.
These have been built in house at FSI for a while and sold when they had time to make them. As the backlog is slowly being worked off more of these items will be available through LN. A few of them will be released at Black Friday this year.
With so much false advertising and outright lies being spread across the board it is unlikely that the FSI products will ever have publicly posted graphs. Claims that aren’t made can’t be challenged and last time I checked the products didn’t need claims to be made for demand to be at least double what can be supplied. This may not make sense to you, or even to me but it is the way that it is and no one will ever change Jake’s mind. If someone doesn’t like it, there’s always the other guy that will appreciate it and buy it.
Where I came from used dyno graphs as their biggest sales tool so it blows my mind to see the opposite in place here. I also see that his idea of not showing the competition what he can do is valuable, since they can just lie and make a graph that shows even more just to try to trump things to make themselves look better. The stories he has told me of this happening back during the aircooled days were very enlightening in regard to understanding his reasons for things.
Blah, blah, blah… this is a dyno sheet thread, read the OP.
You use too many words to say too little in my opinion. I didn’t ask Jake for anything, I told you how you could contribute in a meaningful way… you came back with more words that did not.
Blah, blah, blah… this is a dyno sheet thread, read the OP.
You use too many words to say too little in my opinion. I didn’t ask Jake for anything, I told you how you could contribute in a meaningful way… you came back with more words that did not.
Can I ask a question? Why did you open the thread to Honda engines and Chevy engines, but not a Mezger based Porsche engine? Just a random question.
I would assume to keep the turbo and gt guys out .
Since the gt3 swap is probably least common swap he figured he was only really excluding me, (there may be more out there but mine and the factory build r the only 2 i have seen in the 5 yrs of p-car ownership).
Im in the process of scheduling some dyno time so i can show what a 83k mile gt3 motor can bring to the c2 table.
Why not it’s a good comparison? After all, they are all just air pumps powered by gasoline. It’s time to take the LS1 turbo to the dyno and get the numbers. 530 to 550 is what I expect, at 10psi or so. I really want great street manners with the stock ls6 cam.
I've seen 2 FSI dyno plots here, both on dynojets and both have very similar shapes. They both make very good power over a wide rpm range. The 3.8 peaks somewhere around 320 whp and the 4.0 around 335. That equates to around 365 and 380 crank hp respectively. IMO that's very respectable. The power is increased not only due to displacement but also due to better VE and or thermal efficiency. Most impressive is the broad range. The power curve is very flat from 6 to 7 k
If your objective is to make as much power as possible.....who cares? Stuff some boosted 4 cylinder in there. If on the other hand you are interested in how much you can get out of a sweet sounding N/A flat six, or a V8 or a flat 12 etc, then you have to think in terms of volumetric and thermal efficiency.
Here is a list on engines and a comparison of their ability to make power. The two columns labeled figure of merit show how well a engine produces power when normalized for size and rpm. This is a way of looking at volumetric efficiency and thermal efficiency. Its very interesting to note the advances in the last 20 years. peak torque is where an engine is most efficient.
I've seen 2 FSI dyno plots here, both on dynojets and both have very similar shapes. They both make very good power over a wide rpm range. The 3.8 peaks somewhere around 320 whp and the 4.0 around 335. That equates to around 365 and 380 crank hp respectively. IMO that's very respectable. The power is increased not only due to displacement but also due to better VE and or thermal efficiency. Most impressive is the broad range. The power curve is very flat from 6 to 7 k
If your objective is to make as much power as possible.....who cares? Stuff some boosted 4 cylinder in there. If on the other hand you are interested in how much you can get out of a sweet sounding N/A flat six, or a V8 or a flat 12 etc, then you have to think in terms of volumetric and thermal efficiency.
These characteristics have been the goal all along. When you look at the average age of the person who purchases an FSI engine, and you read their descriptions in the "must have" column of their application you'll clearly see that Jake was successful because he met the goals of the actual purchasers. I reviewed 6 applications this week and none of them mentioned peak power as a goal. Peak power is one of the multiple choice selections.
What is more important to these people is power that is linear and consistent along with a perfectly smooth idle speed, a clutch that isn't heavier than stock and the engine retaining manners.
Jake explained this to me using dirt bikes, and I understood it since I raced MX in my 20s. He said "when we are younger [and dumber] we like the power band of a radical 2 stroke bike. As we age and we change how we ride, the torque of a 4 stroke bike is what we learn to appreciate more and more."
I think he has applied this to the way he designs FSI engines, since rarely do we see a graph where peak power is made past 6,500 RPM. I've never seen a rev limit increased beyond stock in the past 7 months of my time working between FSI and LN. From what I can tell the 3.7 and 3.9L "de- stroked" engine combos that FSI has designed for 8,000 RPM capability are the only engines that defy these basic principles.
I will say that based on the intake tract development that FSI has completed we are seeing those engines that were making 335 at the wheels instantly increase to 350 or so with the output across the entire power band elevating, with no losses anywhere. Lots of this is just from airbox changes, without even bringing the plenum or runner development into the equation. One of the factory center plenums has excellent characteristics and with an adapted GT3 TB it is a cheap way to gain significant bolt on power.
Also, having been present in the FSI engine dyno cell, then seeing the same engine go into a car and onto the chassis dyno the next day, 325 at the wheels with a 996 C2 equates to just under 400 at the crankshaft, both use the same SAE J 1349 correction factors. 335 at the wheels is just over 400 at the crank.
FSI buyers seem to know exactly what they do not want.
These characteristics have been the goal all along. When you look at the average age of the person who purchases an FSI engine, and you read their descriptions in the "must have" column of their application you'll clearly see that Jake was successful because he met the goals of the actual purchasers. I reviewed 6 applications this week and none of them mentioned peak power as a goal. Peak power is one of the multiple choice selections.
What is more important to these people is power that is linear and consistent along with a perfectly smooth idle speed, a clutch that isn't heavier than stock and the engine retaining manners.
Jake explained this to me using dirt bikes, and I understood it since I raced MX in my 20s. He said "when we are younger [and dumber] we like the power band of a radical 2 stroke bike. As we age and we change how we ride, the torque of a 4 stroke bike is what we learn to appreciate more and more."
I think he has applied this to the way he designs FSI engines, since rarely do we see a graph where peak power is made past 6,500 RPM. I've never seen a rev limit increased beyond stock in the past 7 months of my time working between FSI and LN. From what I can tell the 3.7 and 3.9L "de- stroked" engine combos that FSI has designed for 8,000 RPM capability are the only engines that defy these basic principles.
I will say that based on the intake tract development that FSI has completed we are seeing those engines that were making 335 at the wheels instantly increase to 350 or so with the output across the entire power band elevating, with no losses anywhere. Lots of this is just from airbox changes, without even bringing the plenum or runner development into the equation. One of the factory center plenums has excellent characteristics and with an adapted GT3 TB it is a cheap way to gain significant bolt on power.
Also, having been present in the FSI engine dyno cell, then seeing the same engine go into a car and onto the chassis dyno the next day, 325 at the wheels with a 996 C2 equates to just under 400 at the crankshaft, both use the same SAE J 1349 correction factors. 335 at the wheels is just over 400 at the crank.
FSI buyers seem to know exactly what they do not want.
I bought my first 4 stroke dirtbike in 96....a Husaberg 501. I had decided I was old anyway and would slow down but I really wanted a Husaberg. Well it turned out I had a blast on the track and was faster than I was on my 250s. A typical Porsche makes about 30 to 50 less HP on a dynojet than what they are factory rated.....from what I've observed and measured on my cars. So add that to the 335 and you get 380 ish.
09-14-2022, 12:54 PM
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