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Sorry about your engine. Here's my armchair guess to what happened: I see plenty of people talking about oil pressure as the only thing important, but seldom oil flow. The oil pump will keep pushing more and more oil flow until it hits a certain pressure where it will level off and the excess flow will go back thru the by-pass. This is to protect the engine from over-pressure. When running too thick oils(excessive pressure) you level off the oil flow at a too low flow for efficient cooling during hard driving, the oil cooler will not be able to work efficiently if the flow is too low. The correct oil pressure is stated in the manual as "3.5bar at 5k rpm". If you have significantly more than that you will run in to issues, sooner or later. My guess is that(your oil flow was too low) the oil heated up too much causing the piston or rod/main bearings heat up too much and ....bang.
200K on the clock and 7k rpm at the track? Bravo, my hat's off to you! $4500 roller you drove for three years AND tracked, that car owes you not a thing. Here's hoping its repairable, or at least re-engined, and you're back at the track doing 7K rpm again.
^^^This exactly^^^ unfortunately folks (unknowing folks) are going to come here and read this thread (or just the thread title) and say “oh the M96 is a pos engine”...
DJ’s motor died on the track... in the same way a lot of other M96’s have died... long sweeping high G right turn...
This story... regardless of miles - is one that has been told many times and is indicative of a well known, persistent problem for which I know of 1, non-commercially available resolution.
Maybe, it’s coincidence I guess.
The fact remains, if you talk to people who use these engines under serious track conditions or competitively, well, a lot of them will tell you exactly what they think about these engines.
Not a coincidence at all... As you said, it’s a known problem - yet some folks will continue to track them (yourself included) and then complain that the engine is a pos when it blows up (or even before it blows up as they’re flogging it around the track)...What is it they say about repeating the same behavior and expecting a different result? Yes, there are better platforms to start with when building a race engine, but they all blow up (clearly some more than others).
Not a coincidence at all... As you said, it’s a known problem - yet some folks will continue to track them (yourself included) and then complain that the engine is a pos when it blows up (or even before it blows up as they’re flogging it around the track)...What is it they say about repeating the same behavior and expecting a different result? Yes, there are better platforms to start with when building a race engine, but they all blow up (clearly some more than others).
D... I don't see anyone complaining ? Or expecting a different result, I think most of us who use this engine in this way are fully aware of the possibilities. This issue is an inherent flaw to the engine - its not a complaint to recognize its existence, and its not a complaint to say that its existence, coupled with some of its other flaws, my main target being lack of power, may lead some to think that the engine is, to use your words, a "POS".
For me - I love the chassis and I will continue to try to milk every inch I can out of it, despite the fact I think the amazing chassis is completely let down by an engine that does not do it justice. - Also, not a complaint, opinion. If the motor let goes or funds allow, maybe I can see what I can do about that.
I can't wait to see what DJ does, he's a good wrench, good mechanical aptitude and seems like he is excited to get cracking. I'm excited to watch.
I am already looking at rnd replacement block/case but not sure if they have a 3.4l. There is also a race company a baltimore called ssi that i may go visit next week. They nickosil plate and can can do nickies if needed. They were at the track and got a good vibe from the guy.
I may cheat on this one and have the motor built to a track performer spec or i still may build my own. To be honest im not sure i want to build the bottom end if one of these motor without some experience looking over my shoulder.
i can afford one of Jakes motors but i just dont think i want my car to sit for 3 yrs. If i went that direction i would have to put a used motor in and not track until i got it. Again not ideal for me. I bought the car to have fun not sit in a garage.
And to be clear i am not in the least bit complaining that this motor went boom. I have been expecting this to happen since i brought it back from the dead. I made sure it was in as good of shape as it could be in for track duty but it was old and loose. The only thing that im pissed at is it happened on a friday and not sunday.
fyi, if this starts to turn into an arguement about tracking or the quality of a m96 motor i will ask the moterators to step in.
If others have some build idea and options i would love to hear your thoughts.
200k on the track: That's awesome and fearless. Sorry you will be down for a short bit. But from your attitude and drive, I expect it will be only a very short bit.
Sorry, no advice. Anything I could add would be things you already know. I can only add encouragement. Good luck! I'm looking forward to the results.
"and its not a complaint to say that its existence, coupled with some of its other flaws, my main target being lack of power, may lead some to think that the engine is, to use your words, a "POS"."
Those aren't my words at all - in fact I believe I remember a thread that you either started or contributed heavily to, in which you use/used that exact phrase... Personally, I don't care what you think of the engine - I just find it ironic and a bit disingenuous that you come here bashing the engine then build your car out as if it's a race car (which you've done a pretty nice job of BTW) track it and then when the engine blows up you'll probably say "see, I told you the M96 was a sh*tty engine that didn't belong on the track!"
"And to be clear i am not in the least bit complaining that this motor went boom. I have been expecting this to happen since i brought it back from the dead. I made sure it was in as good of shape as it could be in for track duty but it was old and loose. The only thing that im pissed at is it happened on a friday and not sunday. fyi, if this starts to turn into an arguement about tracking or the quality of a m96 motor i will ask the moterators to step in."
^^^ as I said in my original post, you're clearly not complaining and weren't particularly surprised as you stated that the engine had 200k miles on it...I'm a little surprised you were tracking it with DT40 though, as both Jake and Charles have stated several times that DT40 is NOT track oil...this is from the LNE webpage
"Street oils typically protect only to 240F, even full synthetics. Anytime you do a high performance driving event, even if it’s your first time taking your car on track, you should use a true race oil. These oils typically have added anti-wear additives, reduced detergency, and improved anti-foaming additives, coupled with better base stocks that resist thinning at high temperatures. These oils are designed to protect your engine best under the stress of going on track. Remember, most race oils are good only for about 500 miles, so we recommend changing your oil immediately after a track day so you store your race car with clean oil. You should not store any engine with race oil as true race oils do not have the corrosion inhibitor, dispersant, and detergent additives street oils have. For street cars, that becomes a bit more complicated, requiring you to run change to a street oil between events and run the race oil only for track use. Remember, oil is cheap, engines are expensive! Driven Racing Oils offers their XP line of conventional, semi-synthetic, and full synthetic race oils in several viscosity grades for all applications."
Once again, bummer but it seems like your head's in the right place. Good luck with whichever direction you go
Out of curiosity.... does the motor turn over by hand ? EDIT... Just saw pictures... that's a lot of metal, maybe one hole is missing a piston... is that a piece of ring in the sump ? Upper left.
what did plugs look like ?
The plastic pieces look like baffle spacers for the deep sump kit. If I remember correctly, I thought mine were metal - but the instructions seem to show plastic ones as well.
Very sorry about the engine. At the same time I am happy as he'll for you in being able to rebuild. Also happy on what you are going to learn and share with us.
I got an 02 C2. 56k miles, approx 80 track days over 19 years. Never had a fear of bore scoring. Maybe I should. Never had a fear of the Ims, because I put in the LN retro kit. Never worried about AOS after putting in motorsport AOS, because it solved the smoking issue on the track. But I continue to fear oil starvation.
Got a 2 qt deep sump. Change the oil after every track day. If I do 8 in a summer, that's 8 oil changes. Do the same thing for my brake fluid. But all of the enhancements and upgrades listed above still doesn't solve the oil starvation issue.
So as I read thru this thread I ask a couple of questions out loud as I think thru your predicament.
1. What actually caused your engine failure?
2. Is oil starvation more than pulling heavy continuous "G's" around the track. In particular, why could I run so many DEs in the black run group with Hoosiers, and not experience any failure?
3. Or is oil starvation more than pulling "Gs" . Is it a failure of an oil pump or a clog or a lack of sufficient oil or water cooling. But if that's the case, why didn't mine blow running at Road America in Hoosiers in the middle of the summer (many, many times) without enhanced oil cooling or an extra radiator?
4. What did the Porsche 996 race teams do to the car to be able to run our engine in the Grand Am race series?
5. What further can I do to my car to prevent oil starvation?
6. When my engine eventually goes, what do I have to make sure is done to the engine to ensure that I do not have oil starvation in the future with the new engine?
Just a few rhetorical questions for all of us to think about. Unfortunately, I don't have the answers as of yet. Zbomb is aggressively looking for them. De Jeeper, I suspect you are looking for them. So are many of you.
If you have the answers, please share! I for one am all ears.
Sorry but im gonna have to come back to your questions but i was in a sjb 50mph right hander on street tires. I was not pulling the g's needed ti drain a 2qt extra ln pan.
Z - thanks u r right.
More pics. Its out and my bets are still a cracked head. Oh and metal made its way up to the intake. All the oil in top is from a blown aos bellow.
05-16-2021, 03:58 AM
