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When I was researching hot rod engines from the 60’s and 70’s, cylinder bore wear was always a concern and under discussion for rebuilds and longevity. Nothing new.[/QUOTE
Most of those engines could be remedied with a machine bore to the next service size, no plating or sleeving needed. Lots of minor scuffing could be cleaned with a hone, not so much with this engine.
Sure, but it was still a rebuild at 60,000, 80,000, 100,000 miles, not unlike these engines. It just costs a lot more, but then so does everything else for this car. Which makes one wonder if a $20k rebuild is really that crazy for a car that costs $100k new and has a $90 TCO add-on for a total price of $190k over 5 years (Edmond’s TCO estimates).
Sure, but it was still a rebuild at 60,000, 80,000, 100,000 miles, not unlike these engines. It just costs a lot more, but then so does everything else for this car. Which makes one wonder if a $20k rebuild is really that crazy for a car that costs $100k new and has a $90 TCO add-on for a total price of $190k over 5 years (Edmond’s TCO estimates).
Maybe valve job at 60 to 80, the thing that took old engines out was either leakage from seals essentially made from rope, or overheating issues clogged radiators or leaky water pumps. Depends on what you would like to 25 thousand plus on. If it makes you happy, then give Jake a call.
Good webinar last night. Mostly reinforced what has been already said many times and appreciated having Tony Callas there and his take. One take away that I walked away with was something that he said at one point.... In the many PPI's they have done, just about every car had some sort of wear on the cylinder bores. The big and important part is recognizing what is acceptable and what is not. To me, it sounded like these cars will develop some scuffing on the bores which is normal and not something to go crazy about. I'd love to see more focus and examples of this of what is acceptable and can be considered as scuffing vs scoring. Most of what we see are extreme cases. Jake did confirm that looking at this via bore scope will exacerbate the issue often due to the bright light and magnification. He also did say that some scuffing is a byproduct of the dowel pin that helps secure one of the rings and that is normal.
Second big take away, courtesy of Charles was.....drive the damn car! Follow the correct procedures for warm up but do drive it!
I made it till the car owner came on it was past my bedtime, sorry bud, I’m getting old... that said it was informative and enjoyed the info. I see myself looking at the exhaust tips and listening closer to engine noise. I don’t have much time on the oil or miles for that matter, but I think on a day that’s a little warmer get about there warm it up and drain it out, send a sample, drop the pan and look in there with the scope. I have the magnetic plug to put in. See what’s in the pan, look at the bores and decide which Driven oil to use based upon findings. I have a bunch of manometers so I’ll see if I saved the original oil cap and test that too.
I missed that part as well - bummer. That's a sound plan, nrp3. I need to test my AOS to see if it's causing oil consumption and if I end up installing the UAOS I may do injectors as well as I'll need to lower the engine already. My oil change is in about 3k miles so I'll be dropping the sump, poking around with scope and doing UOA.
Yes, a lot of what we covered has already been covered. The main goals that I had for these webinars was to put all the information as part of one resource material, and to have people on the panel that represent every facet of what's involved. This is why Lake, and Tony were asked to be there, as well as Wildbill. There's so much back and forth on this, that people need to hear it all at once, so they can weed out the BS, and streamline their decision to keep the car after a failure, or sell it as a roller.
A lot of bore scoring is misdiagnosed. Some cars that have it, are diagnosed as "bad lifters" and those engines do have scoring. On the flip side, a lot of engines that see scope inspections are misdiagnosed because the person doing the test can't differentiate normal cylinder appearances specific to these engines, from actual bore scoring.
Remember, every mechanical thing ever created has two facts related to it. This varies from roller coasters, to aerospace, to Porsche cars. The fact is that the only guarantee is if the doesn't fail first, it will wear out. Every engine starts to die the day it is started for the first time. Don't ever forget that.
You can take the bore scoring failure, turn the whole thing around, and create something that the factory never could. IF you LOVE the car, bore scoring can be the best thing that ever happened to you, as long as you can afford to do it right.
This failure is much different than the IMS issues. I also know that the IMS issues did NOT hurt the value of these cars; most buyers had no idea that the IMS issue existed until AFTER they bought the car. What hurt the values of these cars was the economy at the time. Look at Mercedes, BMWs and other cars of the same era- same deal.
Why are the cars bringing more money now? Well, its because people have figured out that these cars are the last of the analog Porsche cars, and that everything that came after them got too big, too complex, and too de- sensitized. These cars are also better and simpler than the newer cars, and this will continue to be recognized moving forward.
Seriously though I see you are on the East Coast so it was late and my part was boring(pun intended) compared to the rest of the presentation. My part was to share the issues I went through on my journey to and through bore scoring. I went from no knowledge, to knowledge, to the issue, to denial, to finding the fix, to having the fix performed and being insanely happy about the outcome.
There is a fix and, to me, a very satisfying fix.
Originally Posted by nrp3
I made it till the car owner came on it was past my bedtime, sorry bud, I’m getting old... that said it was informative and enjoyed the info. I see myself looking at the exhaust tips and listening closer to engine noise. I don’t have much time on the oil or miles for that matter, but I think on a day that’s a little warmer get about there warm it up and drain it out, send a sample, drop the pan and look in there with the scope. I have the magnetic plug to put in. See what’s in the pan, look at the bores and decide which Driven oil to use based upon findings. I have a bunch of manometers so I’ll see if I saved the original oil cap and test that too.
Originally Posted by plpete84
I missed that part as well - bummer. That's a sound plan, nrp3. I need to test my AOS to see if it's causing oil consumption and if I end up installing the UAOS I may do injectors as well as I'll need to lower the engine already. My oil change is in about 3k miles so I'll be dropping the sump, poking around with scope and doing UOA.
Last edited by wildbilly32; 02-05-2021 at 02:47 PM.
Not that I wasn't interested in what you have to say. I fizzle out early these days. I'm going to dig into it and see what the real condition of this thing is and try to post some hopefully useful pictures along the way.
02-04-2021, 09:26 AM
