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2019 Engine Rebuild Comparison RND/FSI/EBS/Vertex

 
Old 04-26-2019, 05:51 PM
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wsrgklt
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Default 2019 Engine Rebuild Comparison RND/FSI/EBS/Vertex/9xx/Factory Short Block

There is a lot of information on this forum (and others) about rebuilding 996 engines, but much of it is several years old or UK-centric. I've spent a considerable number of hours researching options for rebuilding my '99 996 engine and collecting my notes into a comparison spreadsheet. Despite the inevitable arguments that will ensue about various approaches to rebuilding these motors, I'm going to share it to help others who are in my unfortunate predicament.

Some background, caveats, and assumptions:

1. My car has bore scoring which enables/requires different rebuild approaches than IMS or other failure modes.
2. I'm located in Chicago, and shipping costs reflect my location.
3. I decided to only compare engine rebuild specialists and not general shops that offered to do the rebuild.
4. Engine removal & installation costs reflect the best quote I received from a Porsche specialty shop in the Chicago area, but I got quotes for more than twice that amount.
5. I left blank any part replacements I could not confirm. I have detailed proposals from some vendors but relied on public information for others. Which is to say, some of the parts left blank might actually be included in those builds.

M96 Engine Rebuild Comparison Spreadsheet

I'm certainly missing some things in the comparison. Your constructive comments are welcome here, and you can also add comments (but not edit) any of the cells in the spreadsheet.

Last edited by wsrgklt; 05-15-2019 at 03:52 PM. Reason: The original title didnĺt capture the topic
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Old 04-27-2019, 09:41 AM
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I don't know if it's a factor for you, but turn around time might be something else to look at.
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Old 04-27-2019, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JTT View Post
I don't know if it's a factor for you, but turn around time might be something else to look at.
JTT Good call. Iĺve been asking about turnaround time and there significant differences, but I forgot to add it to the spreadsheet. Thanks.
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Old 04-27-2019, 10:25 AM
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"I'm certainly missing some things in the comparison. Your constructive comments are welcome here, and you can also add comments (but not edit) any of the cells in the spreadsheet."

While ^^this^^ may look like an "apples to apples" comparison, it's not. There are just too many subtleties to lay it out like that - especially on price. Especially to the "uninitiated" this table makes it look like all builders can be considered the same when that's clearly not the case. I commend your effort, but I think that to someone that's coming in cold shopping, there are lots of "traps" in there. One that jumps out is the "IMS Bearing"... AFAIK, only FSI uses the IMS Solution as standard on their rebuilds... This would add a $2k (at least) premium to the other builds. There are more "gotchas" especially on the less expensive builds. Once again, I appreciate what you're trying to do but it should be prefaced with a disclaimer such as ** These listings are for preliminary comparison purposes only - there's no replacement for in-depth research by the purchaser concerning parts and methods.

* While turnaround time is certainly a big factor for some, it really shouldn't be. Putting a time limit on quality is asking for trouble...
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:20 AM
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OP: Thank you for posting your work. Have you considered and priced an option where you source all your own parts and use a shop that builds M96 motors for track work? JTT and dporto are correct. All of the fore-mentioned items add up when evaluating such a pricey project. I’m always assessing all these factors “just in case”.

And, not to hijack a thread, but what are the shop hours for a full build and for drop and reinstall?
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:33 AM
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Three other options to consider:

1. Porsche factory shortblock
2. Hartec rebuild (in North America this is Alpine Auto in Calgary)
3. Rebore and nickasil plate (multiple companies)
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:35 AM
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dporto A few months ago I was the "uninitiated" - new to Porsche, facing an extremely difficult and expensive decision, and getting differing advice from forums and shops I talked to. In all, I've talked to 6 independent Porsche specialist shops, two of which directed me to EBS Racing for the rebuild as a quality cost-effective builder, and I found a few builders online on my own.

One of the things everyone on the forums says to look out for is how many parts are actually replaced in a build. This spreadsheet initially, and still mostly, is meant to compare the builds in that dimension, especially because both RND and FSI make that a top selling-point in their sales materials. And with good reason - it looks like they probably do replace a lot more stuff than other builders. However, the parts list from EBS Racing compares quite favorably.

The type of parts, like sleeves and IMS bearings, are definitely a factor and that's why they're noted on the spreadsheet (check the comments on each cell for IMS bearing). Just like me, anyone who is considering a rebuild is going to have to weigh how much value they put in using the more expensive parts. I am aware that would be the most contentious part of this thread. However, I haven't seen anyone else even attempt to put together a methodical comparison of the options. If I had this spreadsheet at the start of my process, I still would have done a lot of homework, but this would have saved me a lot of time. I'm hoping it might do the same for someone else.
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:37 AM
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A couple of comments on the FSI Street Performer:

The new Nickies cylinders increase displacement to 3.8 on a 3.6 engine
Since this engine gets The Solution you also get a new spin-on adapter as it is different than the basic one
New water pump included

As info...
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:41 AM
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Great spreadsheet, a lot of good information there.
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by hatchetf15 View Post
OP: Have you considered and priced an option where you source all your own parts and use a shop that builds M96 motors for track work?
That's essentially the EBS Racing option on the spreadsheet. They are both a parts supplier and an engine/transmission builder for street and race cars.

Originally Posted by hatchetf15 View Post
And, not to hijack a thread, but what are the shop hours for a full build and for drop and reinstall?
The quotes I've received show the price but not the hours.
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by strathconaman View Post
Three other options to consider:

1. Porsche factory shortblock
2. Hartec rebuild (in North America this is Alpine Auto in Calgary)
3. Rebore and nickasil plate (multiple companies)
1. Literally every person I talked to said the factory short block option was a bad way to go. It costs about as much as a rebuild and you still have old heads and other old parts that can cause problems.
2. It was unclear to me if Alpine Auto is actually doing the rebuilds or if they just announced the partnership. Not much info online. I should give them a call.
3. EBS gave me this option and it knocks about $2k off the cost and results in the original displacement. I should include it in the spreadsheet. I think this is also how 9xx handles it, but I need to confirm. The downside is that it seems to leave you open to the cylinder cracking/chunking issues in the future.
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Old 04-27-2019, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by wildbilly32 View Post
A couple of comments on the FSI Street Performer:

The new Nickies cylinders increase displacement to 3.8 on a 3.6 engine
Since this engine gets The Solution you also get a new spin-on adapter as it is different than the basic one
New water pump included
wildbilly32 Thanks for the info. I was hoping that other folks here would help me tighten-up the comparison and I've updated the spreadsheet for the FSI engines. The displacements listed are reflective of starting with my 3.4 motor, but I've included the bore size so people can apply that to the 3.6 as well.
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Old 04-27-2019, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by wsrgklt View Post
wildbilly32 Thanks for the info. I was hoping that other folks here would help me tighten-up the comparison and I've updated the spreadsheet for the FSI engines. The displacements listed are reflective of starting with my 3.4 motor, but I've included the bore size so people can apply that to the 3.6 as well.
Sorry I missed that you were starting with a 3.4, duh! You are correct the Street Performer would get you 3.6. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 04-27-2019, 02:26 PM
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Simplify your decision by insisting on LN Nickies cylinder liners.


Originally Posted by wsrgklt View Post
There is a lot of information on this forum (and others) about rebuilding 996 engines, but much of it is several years old or UK-centric. I've spent a considerable number of hours researching options for rebuilding my '99 996 engine and collecting my notes into a comparison spreadsheet. Despite the inevitable arguments that will ensue about various approaches to rebuilding these motors, I'm going to share it to help others who are in my unfortunate predicament.

Some background, caveats, and assumptions:

1. My car has bore scoring which enables/requires different rebuild approaches than IMS or other failure modes.
2. I'm located in Chicago, and shipping costs reflect my location.
3. I decided to only compare engine rebuild specialists and not general shops that offered to do the rebuild.
4. Engine removal & installation costs reflect the best quote I received from a Porsche specialty shop in the Chicago area, but I got quotes for more than twice that amount.
5. I left blank any part replacements I could not confirm. I have detailed proposals from some vendors but relied on public information for others. Which is to say, some of the parts left blank might actually be included in those builds.

M96 Engine Rebuild Comparison Spreadsheet

I'm certainly missing some things in the comparison. Your constructive comments are welcome here, and you can also add comments (but not edit) any of the cells in the spreadsheet.
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Old 04-27-2019, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Byprodriver View Post
Simplify your decision by insisting on LN Nickies cylinder liners.
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