TB993tt

It has to survive the Ruf/LAT test though a sustained 300+kph......... A Motronic boost controlled engine will retard and pull boost back to the 530hp level and fixed boost exploda motors will do their thing if held WOT like this.

Biiighp
650hp at 0.8bar seems a lot of power for very little boost, just how big are those turbos ? have you ever done a 60-130mph ? should be low 6s at that power level.

biiig-hp

[QUOTE=TB993tt;6937378
Biiighp
650hp at 0.8bar seems a lot of power for very little boost, just how big are those turbos ? have you ever done a 60-130mph ? should be low 6s at that power level.[/QUOTE]

Garrett GT-30 hybrid

I'll get some runs in this weekend at the track as well as IAT.

LAT

I was speaking of a 3.6 liter engine, if you calcualte hp/lt and take the Andial 3.8 liter down to a 3.6 liter you end up with 542 hp on street gas.

Close enough for my theory, me thinkss.

Tuner1

I will never be able to test my car at a sustained 300+km/h unless I ship it to Germany.

I will be able to test it with back to back blast from XXkm/h to 200km/h and also many consecutive laps around race tracks.

If one has the correct turbos that don't produce ungodly amounts of heat, a great intercooler to chill the intake charge and a nice engine with great V/E to pump it through...one shouldn't require a Bosch Motronic DME to retard the timing and pull back the boost

Honestly, setting a firm target of 530hp MAX really doesn't make sense. There are way too many variables involved. No doubt the RUF and RS Tuning customers would like to think there is no better way to build an engine but the world is a big, big place with many wise people.

Out of technical curiosity, what exactly failed inside LAT's first two CTR-2engines?

Spartan

Well said

LAT

I don't believe that 530 Hp is a target max but rather what appears to have been achieved to date. There is always room for improvement, and it is welcome. No one tuner has a monopoly on that.

Hole in piston from a lean condition caused 1st failure, 2nd was turbo failure.

biiig-hp

I just don’t agree. I’m sure there are a few people out there that feel the same. I think we can all agree that we definitely shorten the life of our engines once we decided to modify them. And the more power we make, the more risk we take. That should be obvious. But for you to say that the motronic will bring power back down to approx 530hp for most I think is wrong. This might be what you are finding with your motor but you can’t say this is gospel for everyone.

And for the “fixed boost exploda motor”,,,,, I guess Porsche never got the memo as all of their race motors were built that way as well.

pole position

That is all nice and dandy and you seem to fall into the category of the Garrett worshipers. Good turbos ? No doubt but KKK/Borg Warner has plenty of turbos who will match or outperform Garretts GT series....................btw a turbo properly sized for the application run within its efficiency spectrum will not blow needless hot air, ball bearing or not.

RS not Ruf actually builds real race engines for real races not DE,trackdays by noobs or Texas mile wax events those ain't no races , period, and in those real races they win, while their relationship with P motorsport certainly helps but they still win.

There is street racing and there is real racing but coincidently those 700-800 hp aircooled Tuner Porsches are usually absent from real racing. Wonder why.

biiig-hp

Oh really? I’m sure you’re going to find a few club racers that would beg to differ. I’m not sure how many RS customers are in north America, but I’m willing to bet it’s about as many as Europeans using American tuners. There is no point to it. We have some amazing tuners on this side of the pond. Andial, Kelly Moss, Rennsport, performance developments ,mode, protomotive, Jerry wood, and the list goes on. Most of them have built “REAL” race motors that have ran in “REAL” racing events such as Daytona. Now a days I don’t think anyone is building race motors for the 997 other than Porsche. That is for as you put it real racing. I think the rules state it must be a Porsche sealed motor.

I’ll just say one more time what I’ve said before. I Strongly believe that each individual should build his/her motor and car for the purpose they intend to use it in. That’s what a good engine/car builder is for. Let it be the Texas mile ( Eddie Bello, " REAL" BIG POWER), club racing, D.E events or just straight up street driving.

PS. I have one of those 800+ motors and I LOVE IT!!! runs like a clock.

pole position

Your are missing the point...............and you are misinformt, Andial was never a tuner with 800 hp claims, they build to last and there slogan was "in order to win you have to finish first" , coincidently Porsche Motorsport had the same philosophy...........and Jerry Woods is gonna laugh at you if you think a 700-800 hp aircooled motor is going to be reliable beyond a few hours of sustained use.

TB993tt

I am not very up on the race engine side but AFAIU the race GT2s used TAG for ECU control, (according to Paul Frere this was because TAG were a small company who could react quickly so a good partner for racing).
I remember a friend who was racing a 993GT2 at the time struggling with the TAG set up as his new Secan intercooler lowered the IATs too much and the TAG system did not have the programming to cope with the lower IATs so get this: they actually had to blank off part of the intercooler !

It was RS Tuning who developed the Motronic system to work with the race 993GT2s, they used intake system from (was it the RSRs of the time ?) and it did accurately control the boost through a prssure sensing set up - they were and still are pretty successful and when they rebuild these engines now days they dyno at 630PS/830NM and are houred for (expensive) rebuilds.

We don't really need the argument about the 530PS - a 630PS racer (like I describe above) could be held WOT and do the 300kph and it would require (expensive) rebuild right on cue.... the 530PS motor (or with latest Secan, 3.8, twin plug, thin stemmed valves, higher CR, specific mechanical lifter cams - 577PS) could do the 300kph test all day long and not require the rebuilds.

My term "explodamotor" is a joke which obviously winds up the "700+hp" guys but in relative terms that is what they are, BUT they are fit for the purpose for the guys that use them which is great.....

Acropora

Yesterday I got video of me following a gray 997GT2 a few laps around mid-ohio. For engine longevity I'd limited my boost to 0.7 bar and he pulled me a couple car lengths going ~40-150mph on the straights.
Had to follow him since he wouldn't give me a pass by despite riding his bumper in all the turns.

Tuner1

"Garrett worshipers" Me? You must have the wrong guy. I just like turbos that work well....Garrett, KKK, IHI, Mitsu, whatever

My opinion is that some of the KKK units used on these cars are on the small side which gives great response, minimal lag, strong mid-range torque....but at the expense of raised IATs when running @ WOT for extended periods.

TB993tt summed it up perfectly: Since I will never be able to drive at a sustained 300km/h and I have no desire to enter my car in a 24hr endurace race, why would I need a motor package that will survive at WOT under these conditions. For the record I am not saying that mine wouldn't survive but obviously others have their doubts. For the type of driving I do (street, DE, time trial) my engine gives me a bunch more power than these so-called reliable versions

Now let's get away from the "safe power" debate and hear from more fast 993TT owners

bb993tt

This thread is like deja-vu all over again. Didn't we do this same US vs Euro tuner thing TO DEATH a couple of years ago?

Rassel

Yupp...
And IIRC it quickly became obvious that the discussion was pointless since it was apples to oranges. It's like comparing Eddie Bello with RS-tuning. They have completely different goals with their builds.