993tt ECU maps - who has what?
12-01-2005, 07:36 PM
#61
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VS we will have to do the same speed tests in my stock car on the same road and for precision you can do them in mine and one handed!! If we do it two up, we will have to allow for the weight difference with less fuel!! Youll have to let me know in advance as I've the larger tank.
Though it will have to be next week as car has just had the car finally PDI'd with a Zymol treatment(early Xmas present) and I need to put a second layer on first.
Hope that it doesnt affect the times as much as some people have claimed.
Though it will have to be next week as car has just had the car finally PDI'd with a Zymol treatment(early Xmas present) and I need to put a second layer on first.
Hope that it doesnt affect the times as much as some people have claimed.
12-01-2005, 07:50 PM
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Zymol is OK for 60-130 times as long as you do not have massive damage by hail and improve the drag like a golf ball 
Originally Posted by Gordon Attar
...just had the car finally PDI'd with a Zymol treatment(early Xmas present) and I need to put a second layer on first.
Hope that it doesnt affect the times as much as some people have claimed.
Hope that it doesnt affect the times as much as some people have claimed.
12-02-2005, 01:34 AM
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Stummel, at the speeds you drive, even a crushed fly on your windscreen will make a difference in drag! 
Strato, you need to find the compressor size in lbs or cfms (easy) and take it from there. Hybrids and modified turbos can have many different things done to them and unless you know what the compressor size is, you cannot tell what are their HP limitations (with the TT engine that is). Getting the compressor size is not a secret, any shop you buy the turbos from will tell you their size, or I am sure Kevin can tell you how to find out.
K24
I was only giving an example that "if" your K24s are 30lbs, then their limit is 540, which does not mean you will get the 540 at all, as you are reaching intercooler max eficiency there and temps will rise and the turbo will loose its efficiency by up to 20%, but pls let us not get into that debate. If you have 32lb wheels then you "could" reach more hp, and so on.
If you have the HP numbers the Mustang says, you should beat TB's 60-130 numbers, and I would really be very happy for you.
The stock K24 have 28lbs wheels if I am not mistaken, that will take you to 500HP max, assuming 100% turbocharger efficiency, in reality, if one gets real 480, he should be a happy camper. Sportec for instance, to get to their 500HP stage 2 for a K24 based TT (GT2), they modify the turbos, unlike their 460 hp stage 1 on stock K24s (28lbs).
Remember guys, I am talking 993TT engines, the 996TT are more efficient (better BSAC of 10 or so) and can get you up to 560HP-570HP from stock K24s maximum (assuming 100% turbo efficiency, which is never the case). I guess Kevin can let us know what are the stock wheel sizes.
Strato, you need to find the compressor size in lbs or cfms (easy) and take it from there. Hybrids and modified turbos can have many different things done to them and unless you know what the compressor size is, you cannot tell what are their HP limitations (with the TT engine that is). Getting the compressor size is not a secret, any shop you buy the turbos from will tell you their size, or I am sure Kevin can tell you how to find out.
K24
I was only giving an example that "if" your K24s are 30lbs, then their limit is 540, which does not mean you will get the 540 at all, as you are reaching intercooler max eficiency there and temps will rise and the turbo will loose its efficiency by up to 20%, but pls let us not get into that debate. If you have 32lb wheels then you "could" reach more hp, and so on.
If you have the HP numbers the Mustang says, you should beat TB's 60-130 numbers, and I would really be very happy for you.
The stock K24 have 28lbs wheels if I am not mistaken, that will take you to 500HP max, assuming 100% turbocharger efficiency, in reality, if one gets real 480, he should be a happy camper. Sportec for instance, to get to their 500HP stage 2 for a K24 based TT (GT2), they modify the turbos, unlike their 460 hp stage 1 on stock K24s (28lbs).
Remember guys, I am talking 993TT engines, the 996TT are more efficient (better BSAC of 10 or so) and can get you up to 560HP-570HP from stock K24s maximum (assuming 100% turbo efficiency, which is never the case). I guess Kevin can let us know what are the stock wheel sizes.
Last edited by Jean; 12-02-2005 at 02:57 AM.
12-02-2005, 08:48 AM
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Okay, i'm back. And a bit shocked.
The RS ecu pulls like a train. My immobiliser light keeps flashing at me so i guess the drive block thingy is confused or something, but it immobilises fine and the alarm still works and the ecu works.
I had that annoying shroud with the security bolts to deal with first, but anyway... once i had that out, the old ecu unplugged and the new one plugged in. And the car fired up first time.
Headed out on to my private roads again and again i'm at 3/4 tank, 10 degrees C, wet, etc. and i do 5 runs of 60 to 130.
On all 5, there is an odd hesitation at around 4k rpm, and again at about 5k rpm (which may be to do with the wastegate modifications mentioned before), but even so all five runs come in at 10 seconds dead. So even with the odd hesitation, that's a 3 second improvement.
Now ignoring the hesitation and doing a straight run, i can not put any power down in first or second the wheels just spin up, in third i get the rears spinning up at 4k rpm and then gripping again, and it simply rockets through 4th and 5th. Wow.
So i will be taking both ecu's to the rolling road and sunday and we'll see what we see....
The RS ecu pulls like a train. My immobiliser light keeps flashing at me so i guess the drive block thingy is confused or something, but it immobilises fine and the alarm still works and the ecu works.
I had that annoying shroud with the security bolts to deal with first, but anyway... once i had that out, the old ecu unplugged and the new one plugged in. And the car fired up first time.
Headed out on to my private roads again and again i'm at 3/4 tank, 10 degrees C, wet, etc. and i do 5 runs of 60 to 130.
On all 5, there is an odd hesitation at around 4k rpm, and again at about 5k rpm (which may be to do with the wastegate modifications mentioned before), but even so all five runs come in at 10 seconds dead. So even with the odd hesitation, that's a 3 second improvement.
Now ignoring the hesitation and doing a straight run, i can not put any power down in first or second the wheels just spin up, in third i get the rears spinning up at 4k rpm and then gripping again, and it simply rockets through 4th and 5th. Wow.
So i will be taking both ecu's to the rolling road and sunday and we'll see what we see....
12-02-2005, 09:04 AM
#65
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Originally Posted by VerySideways
Okay, i'm back. And a bit shocked.
The RS ecu pulls like a train. My immobiliser light keeps flashing at me so i guess the drive block thingy is confused or something, but it immobilises fine and the alarm still works and the ecu works.
I had that annoying shroud with the security bolts to deal with first, but anyway... once i had that out, the old ecu unplugged and the new one plugged in. And the car fired up first time.
Headed out on to my private roads again and again i'm at 3/4 tank, 10 degrees C, wet, etc. and i do 5 runs of 60 to 130.
On all 5, there is an odd hesitation at around 4k rpm, and again at about 5k rpm (which may be to do with the wastegate modifications mentioned before), but even so all five runs come in at 10 seconds dead. So even with the odd hesitation, that's a 3 second improvement.
Now ignoring the hesitation and doing a straight run, i can not put any power down in first or second the wheels just spin up, in third i get the rears spinning up at 4k rpm and then gripping again, and it simply rockets through 4th and 5th. Wow.
So i will be taking both ecu's to the rolling road and sunday and we'll see what we see....
The RS ecu pulls like a train. My immobiliser light keeps flashing at me so i guess the drive block thingy is confused or something, but it immobilises fine and the alarm still works and the ecu works.
I had that annoying shroud with the security bolts to deal with first, but anyway... once i had that out, the old ecu unplugged and the new one plugged in. And the car fired up first time.
Headed out on to my private roads again and again i'm at 3/4 tank, 10 degrees C, wet, etc. and i do 5 runs of 60 to 130.
On all 5, there is an odd hesitation at around 4k rpm, and again at about 5k rpm (which may be to do with the wastegate modifications mentioned before), but even so all five runs come in at 10 seconds dead. So even with the odd hesitation, that's a 3 second improvement.
Now ignoring the hesitation and doing a straight run, i can not put any power down in first or second the wheels just spin up, in third i get the rears spinning up at 4k rpm and then gripping again, and it simply rockets through 4th and 5th. Wow.
So i will be taking both ecu's to the rolling road and sunday and we'll see what we see....
Moreover, as I've attempted to say here for eons, the RS hp is not the same as rolling road hp. The RS hp will still be there when you are eg gunning it going through 5500rpm in 6th - whilst the rolling road mapped hp (which will not have been adjusted for this type of loading) will be compromised with the ECU pulling timing.
Keep testing and see if you can feel the overboost - tell us more
12-02-2005, 09:30 AM
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Toby, yes, i get the distinct impression the 408PS -> 448PS doesn't tell the story at all.
The difference is in the mid range torque. Goodness gracious. I'm taking both ecu's on sunday so that i can see what the graph looks like, but i'd guess there's a big bump in the torque between 3k and 6k (like 100lbft!).
Now i have to find out what the wastegate modifications involve.
The difference is in the mid range torque. Goodness gracious. I'm taking both ecu's on sunday so that i can see what the graph looks like, but i'd guess there's a big bump in the torque between 3k and 6k (like 100lbft!).
Now i have to find out what the wastegate modifications involve.
12-02-2005, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by VerySideways
Toby, yes, i get the distinct impression the 408PS -> 448PS doesn't tell the story at all.
The difference is in the mid range torque. Goodness gracious. I'm taking both ecu's on sunday so that i can see what the graph looks like, but i'd guess there's a big bump in the torque between 3k and 6k (like 100lbft!).
Now i have to find out what the wastegate modifications involve.
The difference is in the mid range torque. Goodness gracious. I'm taking both ecu's on sunday so that i can see what the graph looks like, but i'd guess there's a big bump in the torque between 3k and 6k (like 100lbft!).
Now i have to find out what the wastegate modifications involve.
Whilst you will no doubt see an improved "shootout" RR loaded power curve - it is not displaying to you the real effect of the RS programmed overboost facility - hence why I asked for more on road analysis.
For reference, if I boot mine at 4500rpm in 3rd, the boost will rise to 1.4bar for a couple of seconds, which compares to the linear dyno "shootout" boost of about 1.2 bar, depending on how much the RR can load the engine.
Make sense ?
12-02-2005, 10:34 AM
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VS, very happy for you. I don't really understand, did you send your turbos to RS as well?
TB, it is clear what you are trying to say, the result will be seen on the torque curve for sure if the dyno run is done properly on the right tool.
TB, it is clear what you are trying to say, the result will be seen on the torque curve for sure if the dyno run is done properly on the right tool.
12-02-2005, 11:10 AM
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Jean, no, standard K16's but with modified actuators is the requirement, my actuators aren't holding the boost i think.
Toby, yes, i'm with you, but irrespective of the overboost i think that the area under the curve on a straight power run will be much bigger for the RS ecu than my stock ecu. I agree with you, this would be very hard to replicate on the dyno. I don't know if that's what it's doing (my stock boost guage still only shows 0.8) but where my stock ecu will show 0.6 or so until about 5500 rpm, then it'll show 0.7 (and sometimes even 0.8) up to the redline in 5th. This ecu gives a solid 0.8 all the way through. If i am sat in 4th at 4k rpm and i boot it, it's spinning the rears up (wet) before taking off like a scalded cat - the boost is practically instant (goes from 0.0 to 0.8 pretty much immediately).
Only problem is that whilst going through the gears is fine, i got clutch slip in 6th when i tried to floor it in 6th. Fine intially at 2k, but as it passed 4k it slipped.
Guess i'll keep an eye on it and get a new clutch in January if necessary.
Toby, yes, i'm with you, but irrespective of the overboost i think that the area under the curve on a straight power run will be much bigger for the RS ecu than my stock ecu. I agree with you, this would be very hard to replicate on the dyno. I don't know if that's what it's doing (my stock boost guage still only shows 0.8) but where my stock ecu will show 0.6 or so until about 5500 rpm, then it'll show 0.7 (and sometimes even 0.8) up to the redline in 5th. This ecu gives a solid 0.8 all the way through. If i am sat in 4th at 4k rpm and i boot it, it's spinning the rears up (wet) before taking off like a scalded cat - the boost is practically instant (goes from 0.0 to 0.8 pretty much immediately).
Only problem is that whilst going through the gears is fine, i got clutch slip in 6th when i tried to floor it in 6th. Fine intially at 2k, but as it passed 4k it slipped.
Guess i'll keep an eye on it and get a new clutch in January if necessary.
12-02-2005, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by VerySideways
Only problem is that whilst going through the gears is fine, i got clutch slip in 6th when i tried to floor it in 6th. Fine intially at 2k, but as it passed 4k it slipped.
.
This is a better indication of torque than any rolling road
12-02-2005, 01:48 PM
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VS; jump under your engine and adjust your actuators 3 turns. That will be 3mm.. You want to adjust the rod so that you shorten the rod... This will allow more seat pressure on the gate.
12-04-2005, 03:24 PM
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Went to Weltmeister today with a bunch of other folk and had a great day out - they disconnected the 4wd and ran the car that way with power runs in 4th gear from 2k rpm upwards. Unfortunately my clutch has had it (thanks to the new ECU) and so we couldn't avoid the clutch slip at 4k rpm. FYI it was a Dyno Dynamics rolling road run with vast amounts of airflow, ambient 14 degrees C in the cell, and my car running 2wd.
The experienced dyno operator nursed it through though for a couple of semi decent runs, and it managed 420.8bhp and 468lb/ft - i will scan the sheets when i can get my scanner working again
The concensus was that i should see between 445 and 450bhp and around 490lb/ft when my clutch is done - we plan to dyno the car again next weekend if we can get the clutch finished in time.
Am i pleased? Like you wouldn't believe
K16's, Techart 100 cells, Techart sports exhausts, and RS Tuning Stage 1 ecu.
Ignoring the raw figures, the midrange feels like a different car. We went out for a road run and went though the gears, did some overboost playing, did some high speed high load runs, all sorts. All of this with the OBD2 computer plugged in (and rubbing my leg!). Not once did any fault codes come up, nor did we see overboost spikes, lambda out of range, or anything else. Very very happy.
FYI, mjims saw around 520bhp from his car with the boost turned down to 1.05bar.
The experienced dyno operator nursed it through though for a couple of semi decent runs, and it managed 420.8bhp and 468lb/ft - i will scan the sheets when i can get my scanner working again
The concensus was that i should see between 445 and 450bhp and around 490lb/ft when my clutch is done - we plan to dyno the car again next weekend if we can get the clutch finished in time.
Am i pleased? Like you wouldn't believe
K16's, Techart 100 cells, Techart sports exhausts, and RS Tuning Stage 1 ecu.
Ignoring the raw figures, the midrange feels like a different car. We went out for a road run and went though the gears, did some overboost playing, did some high speed high load runs, all sorts. All of this with the OBD2 computer plugged in (and rubbing my leg!). Not once did any fault codes come up, nor did we see overboost spikes, lambda out of range, or anything else. Very very happy.
FYI, mjims saw around 520bhp from his car with the boost turned down to 1.05bar.