993tt ECU maps - who has what?
11-30-2005, 11:47 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by Jean
K24, it has nothing to do with turbos or tuners or fuel as I said earlier, I am talking about structural engine efficiency. This is not theory, it is physics. The engine is an air pump, whether you change the exhaust or air filter or cats, it won't do anything for its limits. Add fuel and boost as much as you like.
Your above statement proves how little you truely understand the subject.
Not trying to be rude or insult you but you are dead wrong.
11-30-2005, 11:53 AM
#32
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K24
No insult taken, I will live in my ignorance and probably point Porsche engineers and RS, Kevin, Todd and others to this thread to hopefully get them out of their ignorance and they can learn how to get 500hp from stock K16s on a 993TT.
Good bye thread.
No insult taken, I will live in my ignorance and probably point Porsche engineers and RS, Kevin, Todd and others to this thread to hopefully get them out of their ignorance and they can learn how to get 500hp from stock K16s on a 993TT.
Good bye thread.
11-30-2005, 12:17 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by K24madness
Jean,
Your above statement proves how little you truely understand the subject.
Not trying to be rude or insult you but you are dead wrong.
Your above statement proves how little you truely understand the subject.
Not trying to be rude or insult you but you are dead wrong.
Sorry, what is the specification of your modded 993tt that makes you feel qualified to insult Jean who has has spent more time researching this subject than anyone I see on here, and then having the conviction of his knowledge/beliefs in actually building a unique and cutting edge 993tt -
Until you get on a Maha/show a 60-130/ have a reliable GPS based data log sheet/ drag slip - you really are just spouting theory.
Have you any idea the lengths Jean has gone (and continues to go) to prove to himself how these engines work and what real power is/means ?
11-30-2005, 02:32 PM
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I have to second TB on this one.
I can tell from first hand experience that Jeans car is a beast even after he detuned it.
A modded 500+ hp 996 GT2 Club Sport I drove is just Bull**** compared to the acceleration of Jeans car, period.
We should all agree on 60-130 runs for best comparison.
I can tell from first hand experience that Jeans car is a beast even after he detuned it.
A modded 500+ hp 996 GT2 Club Sport I drove is just Bull**** compared to the acceleration of Jeans car, period.
We should all agree on 60-130 runs for best comparison.
11-30-2005, 02:36 PM
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I didn't mean to start a war, come on guys, i thought we were all friends here? Surely everyone is entitled to their own opinion?
What do people think of an RS Tuning program using K16's and 100 cell cats and developing 448PS? Toby?
Stummel, i agree, can we do 2 different 60 to 130 runs?
One using whatever gears you want, and one just in one gear (like 5th)?
What do people think of an RS Tuning program using K16's and 100 cell cats and developing 448PS? Toby?
Stummel, i agree, can we do 2 different 60 to 130 runs?
One using whatever gears you want, and one just in one gear (like 5th)?
11-30-2005, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by VerySideways
I didn't mean to start a war, come on guys, i thought we were all friends here? Surely everyone is entitled to their own opinion?
But with enough research one can evaluate which opinions are scientifically valid - and learn from other peoples experiences.
Last edited by TB993tt; 11-30-2005 at 03:25 PM.
11-30-2005, 03:13 PM
#37
Dont worry VS, this is not the off topic board. We argue, get pissed, get over it and move on. People have the right to their own opinions and also disagree with others.
God knows how people ended up with their HP figure. Just to mess things up, top HP doesn't mean a lot of area under the curve either. Different Dyno = Different HP. Different Dyno method = Different HP. I can honestly not tell exactly what to use for reference. Therefore we end up in this endless discussion. It's a never ending story..
I think you should focus for the biggest bang-for-the-buck for your combo instead of sheer HP.
The fact is that you have fresh K16, 100-Cat, Sports Muffler.
So the question is, where do you get an ECU that would fit that combo and lets stick to it.
God knows how people ended up with their HP figure. Just to mess things up, top HP doesn't mean a lot of area under the curve either. Different Dyno = Different HP. Different Dyno method = Different HP. I can honestly not tell exactly what to use for reference. Therefore we end up in this endless discussion. It's a never ending story..
I think you should focus for the biggest bang-for-the-buck for your combo instead of sheer HP.
The fact is that you have fresh K16, 100-Cat, Sports Muffler.
So the question is, where do you get an ECU that would fit that combo and lets stick to it.
11-30-2005, 03:16 PM
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VS, yes I will try to do several runs. We will read the speed from the analog speed gauge and substract 3kph from it. So we will stop time from a ~100kph up to a ~210kph reading.
As I PM'ed you I will take the RS ECU in a second
Mr. Schmirler told me these numbers for there lowest stage with stock turbos:
455PS@6200rpm; 580NM@4790rpm 448PS@6900rpm; 461NM@6900rpm
cut off@6900rpm
This stage will outperform the 450PS factory kit in any situation!
As I PM'ed you I will take the RS ECU in a second
Mr. Schmirler told me these numbers for there lowest stage with stock turbos:
455PS@6200rpm; 580NM@4790rpm 448PS@6900rpm; 461NM@6900rpm
cut off@6900rpm
This stage will outperform the 450PS factory kit in any situation!
Originally Posted by VerySideways
...Stummel, i agree, can we do 2 different 60 to 130 runs?
One using whatever gears you want, and one just in one gear (like 5th)?
One using whatever gears you want, and one just in one gear (like 5th)?
11-30-2005, 03:29 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by Stummel
VS, yes I will try to do several runs. We will read the speed from the analog speed gauge and substract 3kph from it. So we will stop time from a ~100kph up to a ~210kph reading.
As I PM'ed you I will take the RS ECU in a second
Mr. Schmirler told me these numbers for there lowest stage with stock turbos:
455PS@6200rpm; 580NM@4790rpm 448PS@6900rpm; 461NM@6900rpm
cut off@6900rpm
This stage will outperform the 450PS factory kit in any situation!
As I PM'ed you I will take the RS ECU in a second
Mr. Schmirler told me these numbers for there lowest stage with stock turbos:
455PS@6200rpm; 580NM@4790rpm 448PS@6900rpm; 461NM@6900rpm
cut off@6900rpm
This stage will outperform the 450PS factory kit in any situation!
Aren't those numbers for modified K16 not stock ?
11-30-2005, 05:36 PM
#40
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Never agreed with the 500HP mark on stock K16's.
When you improve exhaust and intake you alter the effective pressure ratio of the turbo. The improved pressure ratio results in denser air. Denser air results in more HP. This is a FACT.
Fuel quailty will affect the abilty to tune for ideal timing. Pump fuel results in less than ideal timing. Once fuel needs are met greater octain will not result in greater performance. This is a FACT.
Jean care to explain how both you and TB don't get this? You should ask Todd. He will undoubtly agree with my statements.
When you improve exhaust and intake you alter the effective pressure ratio of the turbo. The improved pressure ratio results in denser air. Denser air results in more HP. This is a FACT.
Fuel quailty will affect the abilty to tune for ideal timing. Pump fuel results in less than ideal timing. Once fuel needs are met greater octain will not result in greater performance. This is a FACT.
Jean care to explain how both you and TB don't get this? You should ask Todd. He will undoubtly agree with my statements.
11-30-2005, 05:59 PM
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Physics
Come on guys, Jean is right this is pure physics. It is all about how much air that is combusted and transformed to power. Provided the basis engine is stock, some improvements can be made by more ignition advance supported by higher octane. In my opinion there is too much talk of increased boost, higher octane and 500+ hp. Leave that to the Supra guys where 700 hp equals 450 Porsche hp.
Corky Bell's book, which is very good by the way, is not going too much into the thermo mechanics, which it is all about. The rest is pure mechanics and practicalities.
Corky Bell's book, which is very good by the way, is not going too much into the thermo mechanics, which it is all about. The rest is pure mechanics and practicalities.
11-30-2005, 06:03 PM
#42
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Tom your statement is to broad for the 993TT when we leave the arena of a "stock" engine..
"Once fuel needs are met greater octain will not result in greater performance. This is a FACT."
It is a slippery slope. I have been on the dyno tuning a basically stock 993TT engine and as the cylinder heads heated up, the knock count increased.. Timing was pulled.. On a cool engine, you can ring out more timing.. As the oil temps started to rise, along with head temps and IC temps knock counts increased. The tests were with 92 octane, then 94/95mix then 100.. The engine had good cooling but even with 100, knock was being manifested!! So. I did not have C16 or higher.. I suppose I could have put toulene in to raise the 100...
My point is that this engine has 40K on it, and in stock form, (yes, I was overboosting K16's 1.3bars) I feel that to reach your perfect octane requirement on a single plug 8.2:1 engine, you need over 100 octane to get max timing in a strung out condition.. Strung out in this situation=Stock intercooler, stock K16's, 3.8 FPR.. The HP swings between a cool engine and warm/hot engine was 48HP from crap gas to 100.. By the way the ECU programming was factory motorsport 450..
"Once fuel needs are met greater octain will not result in greater performance. This is a FACT."
It is a slippery slope. I have been on the dyno tuning a basically stock 993TT engine and as the cylinder heads heated up, the knock count increased.. Timing was pulled.. On a cool engine, you can ring out more timing.. As the oil temps started to rise, along with head temps and IC temps knock counts increased. The tests were with 92 octane, then 94/95mix then 100.. The engine had good cooling but even with 100, knock was being manifested!! So. I did not have C16 or higher.. I suppose I could have put toulene in to raise the 100...
My point is that this engine has 40K on it, and in stock form, (yes, I was overboosting K16's 1.3bars) I feel that to reach your perfect octane requirement on a single plug 8.2:1 engine, you need over 100 octane to get max timing in a strung out condition.. Strung out in this situation=Stock intercooler, stock K16's, 3.8 FPR.. The HP swings between a cool engine and warm/hot engine was 48HP from crap gas to 100.. By the way the ECU programming was factory motorsport 450..
11-30-2005, 06:09 PM
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TB, RS told me last year:
Stage 1: 455PS@6200rpm; 580NM@4790rpm 448PS@6900rpm; 461NM@6900rpm
- NON hybrid turbos BUT they are "modified" -> Jean told me they probably modify the wastegates but RS will not tell us mortals...
- modified cat and mufflers
- a lot of other "small" stuff like air filter, headers and so on
Stage 1a: 475PS@6100rpm; 632NM@4500rpm; 455PS@7100rpm; 450NM@7100rpm
Modified stock turbos (hybrid); ...
I asked again if they really do not modify the turbos wheels on Stage 1 and he confirmed that
Of course RS did not mention what they do mod on the turbos...
The ECU that VS is being offered seems to support my information.
It is for stock K16 and is claimed a 448PS. Also Jeans information of 450PS being the max for K16 supports those numbers.
That would mean the difference in stock K16 vs. modified K16 is
+20hp@6200rpm and a higher max rpm with
+10hp@6900rpm and
+50NM torque@4500rpm.
Cost of parts for Stage 1a was an additional ~2000 euro for modifying the turbos.
Labor was an additional ~500 euro.
Does that make sense?
BTW: Stage 1a is about 40% of your cars performance increase and should already be a blast to drive
TB, are you going to do another 60-130 time soon?
Stage 1: 455PS@6200rpm; 580NM@4790rpm 448PS@6900rpm; 461NM@6900rpm
- NON hybrid turbos BUT they are "modified" -> Jean told me they probably modify the wastegates but RS will not tell us mortals...
- modified cat and mufflers
- a lot of other "small" stuff like air filter, headers and so on
Stage 1a: 475PS@6100rpm; 632NM@4500rpm; 455PS@7100rpm; 450NM@7100rpm
Modified stock turbos (hybrid); ...
I asked again if they really do not modify the turbos wheels on Stage 1 and he confirmed that
Of course RS did not mention what they do mod on the turbos...The ECU that VS is being offered seems to support my information.
It is for stock K16 and is claimed a 448PS. Also Jeans information of 450PS being the max for K16 supports those numbers.
That would mean the difference in stock K16 vs. modified K16 is
+20hp@6200rpm and a higher max rpm with
+10hp@6900rpm and
+50NM torque@4500rpm.
Cost of parts for Stage 1a was an additional ~2000 euro for modifying the turbos.
Labor was an additional ~500 euro.
Does that make sense?
BTW: Stage 1a is about 40% of your cars performance increase and should already be a blast to drive
TB, are you going to do another 60-130 time soon?
Originally Posted by TB993tt
Stummel
Aren't those numbers for modified K16 not stock ?
Aren't those numbers for modified K16 not stock ?
Last edited by Stummel; 12-01-2005 at 05:30 AM. Reason: Correcting WRONG information, sorry
11-30-2005, 06:12 PM
#44
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Kevin,
Yes I was trying to keep my statements vague. Detonation threshold is a moving target. The original point I was trying to make is to optimize what ever setup you have for the best results. To say the XX turbos are limited to XX HP is not possible. As you know there are many more variables that can either improve or detract from approx HP potential.
Yes I was trying to keep my statements vague. Detonation threshold is a moving target. The original point I was trying to make is to optimize what ever setup you have for the best results. To say the XX turbos are limited to XX HP is not possible. As you know there are many more variables that can either improve or detract from approx HP potential.
11-30-2005, 06:34 PM
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Indeed, the ECU is an RS tuning one, for stock K16's, 100 cells, and sports mufflers, and is rated at 448PS and 581Nm. I should have it in the car on Friday afternoon hopefully.