993tt ECU maps - who has what?
11-30-2005, 05:24 AM
#16
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Hi Jean,
I'm sorry if you took offense to my previous post, that was not the intention, i realise that the first mod if you want decent horsepower numbers is bigger turbos but i want to know what is possible with the standard turbos.
Unfortunately i do not have the sort of disposable income whereby i can afford to spend thousands (and lose thousands) by modifying my car - i have done that once and will not do it again. Also, the only reason i can afford a 993tt at all (i'm 29 years old and in a mediocre job) is because i bought property as soon as i left university seven years ago and i have lost very little on depreciation on my many many cars. For me then, i would rather buy a 968CS or 993RS than spend the sort of money that you and TB and so many others have spent on your tt's. Believe me, if i had the money, i would go out and spend £90,000 on a 993 GT2 tomorrow and i'd look like this on my deathbed
I'm not after monster horsepower, i simply want to maximise my car's potential for a reasonable cost. If i can only get 430hp from my K16's then i'd rather save my pennies and leave it as it is (now that the 100 cells have given me the noise i wanted).
As i said before, all the power figures i have seen claimed i take with a pinch of salt, but i also think people haven't generally spent much time tuning for K16's because they just throw a few $$$$ and buy bigger turbos and then go from there. My car drives almost like an n/a car now with the free flowing exhaust and the tiny turbos. It's wonderful!
Thanks again for your responses, and keep them coming, i want to hear everyone's experiences (good or bad). I know the theory and the claims, i want to hear the proof from people who have done it.
VS
I'm sorry if you took offense to my previous post, that was not the intention, i realise that the first mod if you want decent horsepower numbers is bigger turbos but i want to know what is possible with the standard turbos.
Unfortunately i do not have the sort of disposable income whereby i can afford to spend thousands (and lose thousands) by modifying my car - i have done that once and will not do it again. Also, the only reason i can afford a 993tt at all (i'm 29 years old and in a mediocre job) is because i bought property as soon as i left university seven years ago and i have lost very little on depreciation on my many many cars. For me then, i would rather buy a 968CS or 993RS than spend the sort of money that you and TB and so many others have spent on your tt's. Believe me, if i had the money, i would go out and spend £90,000 on a 993 GT2 tomorrow and i'd look like this on my deathbed
I'm not after monster horsepower, i simply want to maximise my car's potential for a reasonable cost. If i can only get 430hp from my K16's then i'd rather save my pennies and leave it as it is (now that the 100 cells have given me the noise i wanted).
As i said before, all the power figures i have seen claimed i take with a pinch of salt, but i also think people haven't generally spent much time tuning for K16's because they just throw a few $$$$ and buy bigger turbos and then go from there. My car drives almost like an n/a car now with the free flowing exhaust and the tiny turbos. It's wonderful!
Thanks again for your responses, and keep them coming, i want to hear everyone's experiences (good or bad). I know the theory and the claims, i want to hear the proof from people who have done it.
VS
11-30-2005, 05:39 AM
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Jean, I think one problem here is that people question if it really is necessary to measure the hp like RS or Manthey do it.
They feel that they use full power only for very short periods of time (couple of seconds) whey should they torture the engine for minutes on the dyno only to get really low hp numbers?
Maybe a 500+ "pony power" from a K16 is sufficient for cruising and to accelerate sporadically from 60 to 90mph on a highway ramp?
Different strokes for different folks!
It would be interesting to see what numbers they measure for a 490PS Ruf Turbo R or a 520PS RS-Tuning car?
They feel that they use full power only for very short periods of time (couple of seconds) whey should they torture the engine for minutes on the dyno only to get really low hp numbers?
Maybe a 500+ "pony power" from a K16 is sufficient for cruising and to accelerate sporadically from 60 to 90mph on a highway ramp?
Different strokes for different folks!
It would be interesting to see what numbers they measure for a 490PS Ruf Turbo R or a 520PS RS-Tuning car?
11-30-2005, 05:57 AM
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VS, I can very much relate to your situation, also I am one year older 
As the 993tt further drops in value there will be more people who want performance for little money. Unfortunately the 993tt is the wrong car for this.
What I can say is that when I added the Porsche 430ps ECU it made a difference but very subtle. AFAIK the ECU makes like a tenths more boost at hi rpms. You can feel a small additional push at around 5800 rpm. I was kind of "surprised" when at 270kph the car had this small push
The best is that you can reproduce that small push almost every time. It definately makes the car a bit more enjoyable and widens the power band. The muffler bypass added a bit of low end power.
I think a good ECU mapping can make the car accelerate noticeably better even with stock K16's.
Even if your top hp is still 430 but you have a broader torque curve with better cats and mufflers and a more aggressive mapping it can make up for an improvement in driveability.
As the 993tt further drops in value there will be more people who want performance for little money. Unfortunately the 993tt is the wrong car for this.What I can say is that when I added the Porsche 430ps ECU it made a difference but very subtle. AFAIK the ECU makes like a tenths more boost at hi rpms. You can feel a small additional push at around 5800 rpm. I was kind of "surprised" when at 270kph the car had this small push
The best is that you can reproduce that small push almost every time. It definately makes the car a bit more enjoyable and widens the power band. The muffler bypass added a bit of low end power.
I think a good ECU mapping can make the car accelerate noticeably better even with stock K16's.
Even if your top hp is still 430 but you have a broader torque curve with better cats and mufflers and a more aggressive mapping it can make up for an improvement in driveability.
Originally Posted by VerySideways
...
Unfortunately i do not have the sort of disposable income whereby i can afford to spend thousands (and lose thousands) by modifying my car ...
(i'm 29 years old and in a mediocre job) ... Believe me, if i had the money, i would go out and spend £90,000 on a 993 GT2 tomorrow and i'd look like this on my deathbed
I'm not after monster horsepower, i simply want to maximise my car's potential for a reasonable cost. If i can only get 430hp from my K16's then i'd rather save my pennies and leave it as it is (now that the 100 cells have given me the noise i wanted).
...
Thanks again for your responses, and keep them coming, i want to hear everyone's experiences (good or bad). I know the theory and the claims, i want to hear the proof from people who have done it.
VS
Unfortunately i do not have the sort of disposable income whereby i can afford to spend thousands (and lose thousands) by modifying my car ...
(i'm 29 years old and in a mediocre job) ... Believe me, if i had the money, i would go out and spend £90,000 on a 993 GT2 tomorrow and i'd look like this on my deathbed
I'm not after monster horsepower, i simply want to maximise my car's potential for a reasonable cost. If i can only get 430hp from my K16's then i'd rather save my pennies and leave it as it is (now that the 100 cells have given me the noise i wanted).
...
Thanks again for your responses, and keep them coming, i want to hear everyone's experiences (good or bad). I know the theory and the claims, i want to hear the proof from people who have done it.
VS
11-30-2005, 06:07 AM
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I was a lucky bastard and got it from ebay for around 800 euros if I remember correctly. It was plug n play.
Originally Posted by VerySideways
Stummel, where did you get your 430 ecu? Like you, i'm really after that broader torque curve. 
11-30-2005, 06:25 AM
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VS
No offense at all, likewise. This debate will go on forever maybe, it will not change physics, stock K16 will not get you those numbers.
Stummel, I understand what you mean. I do not necessarily agree 100% with RS horses either, but there is a difference. If you are using a turbo that physically "could" deliver your claimed 600hp, and RS say it is giving you only 520hp because of your state of tune and intercooler etc, then that is debatable. However a turbo that just cannot give you those numbers because of structural limitations and the heat they will generate, there are no horses or ponies here.
...
VS, don't waste your money on an "450 hp" ECU alone if what you want is noticeable torque difference, the only reason I stepped in to this thread is because I know how important your car is to you and I would hate to see you throw money away. The 430 ECU is nice to have.
Cheers
No offense at all, likewise. This debate will go on forever maybe, it will not change physics, stock K16 will not get you those numbers.
Stummel, I understand what you mean. I do not necessarily agree 100% with RS horses either, but there is a difference. If you are using a turbo that physically "could" deliver your claimed 600hp, and RS say it is giving you only 520hp because of your state of tune and intercooler etc, then that is debatable. However a turbo that just cannot give you those numbers because of structural limitations and the heat they will generate, there are no horses or ponies here.
...VS, don't waste your money on an "450 hp" ECU alone if what you want is noticeable torque difference, the only reason I stepped in to this thread is because I know how important your car is to you and I would hate to see you throw money away. The 430 ECU is nice to have.
Cheers
11-30-2005, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Stummel
Jean, I think one problem here is that people question if it really is necessary to measure the hp like RS or Manthey do it.
They feel that they use full power only for very short periods of time (couple of seconds) whey should they torture the engine for minutes on the dyno only to get really low hp numbers?
Maybe a 500+ "pony power" from a K16 is sufficient for cruising and to accelerate sporadically from 60 to 90mph on a highway ramp?
Different strokes for different folks!
It would be interesting to see what numbers they measure for a 490PS Ruf Turbo R or a 520PS RS-Tuning car?
They feel that they use full power only for very short periods of time (couple of seconds) whey should they torture the engine for minutes on the dyno only to get really low hp numbers?
Maybe a 500+ "pony power" from a K16 is sufficient for cruising and to accelerate sporadically from 60 to 90mph on a highway ramp?
Different strokes for different folks!
It would be interesting to see what numbers they measure for a 490PS Ruf Turbo R or a 520PS RS-Tuning car?
As for how long the "super pony power" will last, well I have been told it will only last under light loading like on a lightly loaded chassis dyno run which means anything over 3rd gear will result in less power - how much less I don't know.
The truth will become apparent when I run my 540RS gee gees against some other Tuners Chassis dyno 540 "super power ponies"
Until then I think I'll shut up
11-30-2005, 06:49 AM
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Stummel, that's a very generous offer, do you have drive-block? From what i understand, because i have drive-block i can only plug-n-play another drive-block ecu. Do you know if this is correct even?
I guess the best way to guage the difference would be to try a 30-130 in 6th with my ECU and then with yours? See what the time difference is, on the same day, same stretch of road, etc.
TB, i know your car's uber-quick, but as i said before the look of it and the noise it makes just do it for me. I have the sound recorded in my head of your car pulling out of the Tech9 workshop a few weeks back. Awesome.
I guess the best way to guage the difference would be to try a 30-130 in 6th with my ECU and then with yours? See what the time difference is, on the same day, same stretch of road, etc.
TB, i know your car's uber-quick, but as i said before the look of it and the noise it makes just do it for me.
I have the sound recorded in my head of your car pulling out of the Tech9 workshop a few weeks back. Awesome.
11-30-2005, 07:03 AM
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VS, I have drive-block and it made no problem. I had it installed at a porsche center but you can DIY.
As I still have the 408ps ECU I could do the 30-130 myself.
Hmm, will try it on friday night with a friend so I do not need to handle the stop watch.
Hope it is not snowing.
Will post results if it works out.
VS, please try to figure out how we can arrange the shipping. (UPS, DHL...?)
As I still have the 408ps ECU I could do the 30-130 myself.
Hmm, will try it on friday night with a friend so I do not need to handle the stop watch.
Hope it is not snowing.
Will post results if it works out.
VS, please try to figure out how we can arrange the shipping. (UPS, DHL...?)
11-30-2005, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by VerySideways
TB, i know your car's uber-quick, but as i said before the look of it and the noise it makes just do it for me. I have the sound recorded in my head of your car pulling out of the Tech9 workshop a few weeks back. Awesome.
I have the sound recorded in my head of your car pulling out of the Tech9 workshop a few weeks back. Awesome.I appreciate the sentiments and agree with them (obviously) but whether my car is "uber-quick" has to be relative.
As far as I am concerned, my car should have the same acceleration as any other 2WD ~1400kg DIN 540hp/740NM GT2 bodied (but stock winged
) 993tt.There have been quite a few people claiming 520+hp over the years on RL who claim to have got there by spending as little as a 1/5th of what my motor cost therebye (in my chipped up eyes) implying I am a fool for getting ripped off by RS (without even spending the time to find details of how many different 993tt motor configurations from different "Tuners" I have tried out over the last 7 years - which could quite easily be classed in the "ripped off" category)
If a 993tt with similar spec to the above is slower - then they HAVE NOT got 540hp/740NM and I will be VIGOROUSLY attacking such claims in the future.
If however I am wrong and I have been ripped off again then ahem......
11-30-2005, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by TB993tt
The truth will become apparent when I run my 540RS gee gees against some other Tuners Chassis dyno 540 "super power ponies"
Until then I think I'll shut up
Until then I think I'll shut up
) Not sure what the length (in time) of a run at B'thorpe is; will it be enough to heat soak the engines at speed? And it seems as though it ought to be done in the hot weather, not this time of year, to be as stressful an environment as possible in order to help separate the wheat from the chaff (assuming there is any).
11-30-2005, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by phelix
Is there a date for yet? (The shootout, not TB993tt shutting up. ) Not sure what the length (in time) of a run at B'thorpe is; will it be enough to heat soak the engines at speed? And it seems as though it ought to be done in the hot weather, not this time of year, to be as stressful an environment as possible in order to help separate the wheat from the chaff (assuming there is any).
) Not sure what the length (in time) of a run at B'thorpe is; will it be enough to heat soak the engines at speed? And it seems as though it ought to be done in the hot weather, not this time of year, to be as stressful an environment as possible in order to help separate the wheat from the chaff (assuming there is any).My understanding is that the cold, whilst as you say not exposing heat soak related shortcomings easily, will reveal other problems with fixed boost controlled motors. The fixed boost motors will deprive the Motronic the facility to lower the air mass of the cold air (via the boost) which potentially can cause problems with the mapping resulting in one of the protection limiters cutting in (I understand this may have recently happened to a chassis dyno claimed ~540hp fixed boost 993tt on a recent freezing day).
The Motronically controlled motor will allow less boost in the cold weather therebye staying within range of the mapping for the given componentry. In this case is isn't a matter of having 540hp - if the engine cuts out you have ZERO hp
Last edited by TB993tt; 12-01-2005 at 06:39 AM.
11-30-2005, 11:19 AM
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Jean,
Yes I beleive Todd. I do recommend his software/package above all others.
The limits you mentioned are theorical ones. So lets for agruement sake say they are exact. What MAPs don't show is how turbos behave once installed it the car. You have to investigate the various shortcomings of the installed system. Major improvements can be made without changing the turbos thus changing the efficency of the motor.
Lets just say that the 430 hp is the limit on pump gas with cats, mufflers and stock K16's. Now if we remove the exhaust and intake restrictions the turbo will not have to work as hard. Now if we retune to increase boost more of the turbos work will result in power instead of trying to overcome the restrictions. The turbos overall work will remain unchanged. You have just improved its efficeny. How much more power can be expected on top of that 430HP? Not sure but if you keep working slowly in the proper direction those minor changes add up quickly.
Better fuel and ignition how much more HP???
In racing they say the devil is in the details.
I suggest you pick up a copy of maximum boost by corkey bell. It is one of the better books I have ever read on the subject.
I know the person that did the tuning for Bob on that 993tt. He is very talanted. He did make major improvements over the stock power levels at the wheels. That is what I was impressed with. I am not going to speculate the true flywheel HP. Focus in on the improvements on a dyno you can never go wrong. To quote flywheel HP from those figures is not wise IMHO.
Yes I beleive Todd. I do recommend his software/package above all others.
The limits you mentioned are theorical ones. So lets for agruement sake say they are exact. What MAPs don't show is how turbos behave once installed it the car. You have to investigate the various shortcomings of the installed system. Major improvements can be made without changing the turbos thus changing the efficency of the motor.
Lets just say that the 430 hp is the limit on pump gas with cats, mufflers and stock K16's. Now if we remove the exhaust and intake restrictions the turbo will not have to work as hard. Now if we retune to increase boost more of the turbos work will result in power instead of trying to overcome the restrictions. The turbos overall work will remain unchanged. You have just improved its efficeny. How much more power can be expected on top of that 430HP? Not sure but if you keep working slowly in the proper direction those minor changes add up quickly.
Better fuel and ignition how much more HP???
In racing they say the devil is in the details.
I suggest you pick up a copy of maximum boost by corkey bell. It is one of the better books I have ever read on the subject.
I know the person that did the tuning for Bob on that 993tt. He is very talanted. He did make major improvements over the stock power levels at the wheels. That is what I was impressed with. I am not going to speculate the true flywheel HP. Focus in on the improvements on a dyno you can never go wrong. To quote flywheel HP from those figures is not wise IMHO.
11-30-2005, 11:40 AM
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K24, it has nothing to do with turbos or tuners or fuel as I said earlier, I am talking about structural engine efficiency. This is not theory, it is physics. The engine is an air pump, whether you change the exhaust or air filter or cats, it won't do anything for its limits. Add fuel and boost as much as you like.
My heavily modded 3.8 ltr pressure sensing, no restriction air intake, no cats no muffler(almost) Garrett turbo engine with a zillion head and other mods does not reach beyond 9 hp/lb, can you, with a 3.6 MAF?
FWIW, I have had the Corky Bell book since it came out, good bedtime reading. I don't know if the tuners I mentioned earlier do have it however.
BTW I have started racing 20 years ago now, and I don't mean quartermile runs.
My heavily modded 3.8 ltr pressure sensing, no restriction air intake, no cats no muffler(almost) Garrett turbo engine with a zillion head and other mods does not reach beyond 9 hp/lb, can you, with a 3.6 MAF?
FWIW, I have had the Corky Bell book since it came out, good bedtime reading. I don't know if the tuners I mentioned earlier do have it however.
BTW I have started racing 20 years ago now, and I don't mean quartermile runs.