nman413

Jim (JJayB), correction. I'm a slow driver and bold passenger (sometimes). I was volunteering to be the latter when I volunteered to time you.

Rob 97 993c2

Forgive my ignorance, but i find something about this thread troubling.. perhaps b/c im thinking of turbo upgrades as well.

Marty, if you had all that work done AND your ECU was programmed by Todd (who is worldclass from all accounts), i dont understand why your entire package should not work better as a complete system.
Plus, it should not take a drag race against a viper to realize something is wrong.
Makes me loose confidence in being able to upgrade the TT from stock.

Bill S.

My Ruf Turbo R was at least 5 cars ahead of a 480 HP Archer-built Viper engine from 60 to 150 and 10 cars ahead of a stock 2000 Viper RT/10.

That's with 100 octane in the Ruf. With 91 octane, it's probably half as many car lengths. Octane makes a big difference in the 993 TT with higher boost.

My 993TT with the 450 HP kit from Porsche was the same as the 2000 Viper. The Ruf is much faster than the 450 kit and also cars modified with GT2 hybrid turbos, FVD ECU, 5 bar FPR, free-flow air filter and no cats.

The Ruf, Andial, RS Tuning, and Protomotive cars are very fast. The cams in the Ruf make a huge difference.

Woodster

Bill, in your opinion (or actuality), how would (0r did) the cars modified with gt2 hybrids, etc
stack up against the (2) vipers you mentioned? thanks for the info! You have a wonderful
car.
best regards
mk

Bill S.

The FVD car would be faster than the Vipers. I was only 2 or 3 cars ahead of the FVD car from a rolling 2nd-gear start up to 150 mph. The FVD car also had no cats, special Robin mufflers, and was using 100 octane. The turbos alone would not have made a big difference over stock. I think the Ruf was only faster because of the cams.

Jean

There are many who use it as such, while this is obviously not why they were invented.
Engines built with high performance objectives can have a boost controller, RS Tuning knows a little about Motronic calibration and used boost controllers on their high hp applications, Todd Knighton knows Motronic quite well too..

AFAIK, the Motronic does not understand boost as such.. In a Motronic environment, boost is a function of throttle position (TP) and engine revs, it then transmits the signal to the boost controler . Therefore if you do the slightest change (OK maybe not the slightest) to your hardware, you will mislead your ECU (remember it only reads TP and RPM) and therefore you need a remap. Put a larger turbo for instance, your boost will drop automatically, and to compensate, you will need a boost controller (simple method) or to reflash your ECU (more expensive, but better)..

For certain applications , it is an excellent choice, for others it is not.. The key is to have everything done at the same tuner for best results.

Marty, the issue is not your EBC or your ECU programming as a standalone, it is your whole package and its tuning as one component.

Woodster

Jean,
I agree with you, but I believe the correct ecu tuning will bring the whole package together. I
don't personally believe that I need an auxillary boost controller for my application. (mostly
street).

Rob 97 993c2

i think jean is totally correct and as such, therein lies some of the problem/concerns of our 993tt forum 'upgrades'. Im not sure how to get comfort that we can make a package that works well together despite Kevin's great hybrids, programming from todd or gunter, or whatever..

I know there are several people around here who are waiting to do upgrades (incl myself) but want to feel comfortable that the system works as a package.

Marty, im sorry if im 'talking my own book' but your experience is very relivent.

hatchy

I dont know anything about Motronic but would like to understand it better; If it only looks at TPS and Revs, what does it use the MAF or MAP sensors for? Does the ECU not have fuel and timing maps for boost?

Kevin

Jean your past statement is only half correct. Wide open throttle will give us that loop, however, in a regulation mode through temp and knock, timing is yanked along with "boost".. The truth of the matter is the ECU is too frequent or premature to allow the frequency valve to allow manifold pressure to open the wastegates.. We need to make a seperation of facts with engine builds and reliability.. The stock engine with no internal strengthening "mods" should not be permitted to run outside of the protected ECU control. Especially if one runs crap fuel..

There are 2 known programs for my Stage 2's.. GIAC through the Speed Gallery has a 91 octane dyno written program. It sacrifices HP to gain torque due to the high knock counts.. The 2nd one is a high octane program written by Protomotive using a "boost controller" The other option is "custom tuning" on a dyno. Again my recommendation is Gunter.

Iridium

Data point: My 99 ACR made 424RWHP/470RWTQ, stock. More than 400RWTQ from 2000 to 5500RPM.

John H. in DC Area

I've been reluctant to contribute to this thread because I'm not finished with my data gathering, but I should be able to add a reliable, proven data point by the end of this month. I, like Steve, Kevin, TB, and others, believe Marty's "underperformance" relates mainly to programming.

Without properly customized programming Marty, you aren't making close to 500 hp, you're probably in the low- to mid-400's, and with the power to weight ratio of the relatively porky 993TT, the Viper should have beaten you, though not by 2 car lengths, particularly given your four-wheel drive benefits from a rolling low speed start.

I had to abort an all-day tuning session with Gunther last month due to an unexpected equipment failure (his) and I am waiting for his return to finish the job at the end of the month. With only Gunther's stage 1 tuning, which I've had for three years and which doesn't account for my upgraded ZC/GT1 turbos (from Kevin) and free-er flowing exhaust, my car put out 362 hp/345 tq to the wheels on a Mustang dyno, which equates to anywhere from 435-460, depending upon the drive loss factor one uses. The shape of the hp/tq curves was beautiful, showing a steadily rising line that stayed high from 4k rpms to redline. No Empire State Building-looking curves. My AF and other ratios were very good according to Gunther and my tech Minh. When Gunter hooked up all of his equipment, monitored boost, AF, timing, etc., ran the car on the dyno at different loads over time, and then wrote a customized program for my package using his laptop, it showed the ability to put an additional 30-40 hp/tq to the wheels (beyond the baseline 362/345) using his laptop and the new program in lieu of my ECU. However, he was unable to write the new program to my ECU due to a problem with his equipment, so I haven't finished the "after" part of the before/after dyno comparison. I'll have to wait until the end of April to get it. Needless to say, I'm eagerly awaiting his visit and I think he earned my patience. This was with Exxon 93 octane pump gas.

Like Steve W., Kevin, TB, and numerous other folks have posted, Gunther concurred that there are pretty clearly defined performance/horsepower steps for modding these cars with goals of reliability, reasonable boost ranges up to 1.2 bar, and with a good looking area under the curve. You can get to 425hp with ECU; 450 with ECU, turbos, and exhaust; and 480 hp with aggressive turbos, ECU, and exhaust in the context of an engine with healthy valves, compression, wastegate, etc. 490/500 hp and over requires camshafts or a displacement increase in addition to ECU, turbos, and exhaust; upgraded rods are a must over 550hp.

I should add that in the course of my research there was clear evidence that the GIAC software can be very well customized for a diverse package of turbos, exhaust, headers, etc. (see Addison, et al.). Until the opportunity with Gunther fell in my lap, I almost went with Mike at AWE/GIAC, who was a pleasure to deal with. That's not to denigrate any other tuners like Protomotive, who obviously can produce some high horsepower cars, I just didn't research them as intimately. For cost no object shoppers (although in hindsight I think I'm awfully close in cost), the Ruf turbo R remains the gold standard, involving a coherently tuned collection of turbos, exhaust, camshafts and ECU which likely surpasses the reported 490hp.

Just my 2 cents, courtesy of a recent German education. We're really not reinventing the wheel folks, as people (like Steve W. and others) were modding, testing, and racing 993TT and GT2's all day long, year after year starting in the mid-90's. Ignore their decade's worth of wisdom at your engines' and your wallets' perils.

Bill S.

Here's another datapoint. Ruf's special $56K 550 HP package for the 993 TT requires:

1. Titanium conrods
2. New cylinder heads
3. Total rebuild of the engine
4. New turbochargers
5. New exhaust system
6. New Motronic

The Andial engines are not far off from this.

ttAmerica RoadsterAWD

Where is "Speed Gallery"? Is there a website? Did a search on "Speed Gallery" only got three hits on this forum. Are they in California? Any contact info appreciated.

Jaime

Kevin

John, I heard of your misfortune and YOUR Patience.. I felt bad to hear what happened. It actually was a connection of one of his internal chipsets. From my understanding you have his 2nd Stage, his first one is for just a boost upgrade for stock turbo's.. I thought that you had the GT1 software, and are working on a custom tweek of that.. From my last conversation 2 weeks ago, you are going to be his first tune this trip!!