Jean

I think John summarized very well for everyone here. No cheap hp.

Kevin, do you know out of the two approaches for your turbos, which one is yielding better performance overall?

Marty before you do any changes, talk to Todd, I told him about you and he is expecting your call, he does not believe you need to remove your EBC. I have no affiliation whatsoever other than being a customer.

Kevin

Jean, which two approaches? Programming or?

Jean

Kevin, Still awake?

Yes I meant the 2 programs.. With and without EBC.

John H. in DC Area

Yup, Kevin, I was pretty frustrated when it happened, but sh_t happens in any line of work, the question is whether the vendor stands behind their work and Gunther/Sportec certainly do that, plus he's a joy to work with and a veritable fountain of knowledge.

Your info makes more sense, as Gunther's stage 2 was likely the basis for my car's strong baseline run. It also means that your ZC/ceramic coating (plus some exhaust freeing) has the potential to add quite an impressive gain over standard GT1's with the right programming.

Woodster

John, that was fantastic info, and cooincides with what I am learning.
I spoke to Todd at Protomotive yesterday and he is obviously very capable
of tuning our cars. Without the benefit of having my car at his shop in southern
california, He uses a more "generic" program, the latest is his #560. This has
the ability to go higher boost and deliver higher levels of fuel, timing, etc.
To achieve maximum performance one needs to take their car directly to a
tuner, and program it while on a dyno. (ex, gunter, Imagineauto uses
Motec tuning as I believe Geoffrey does---after talking to steve at I/A,
I have no doubt would produce excellent results and costs about
$10,000!). Another thing that I thought was very interesting is that
(according to todd), Kevin's turbos need like lots of boost and is in fact
why todd uses an auxillary boost controller with Kevin's turbos. todd
does not use boost controller with k-24's, k-26's and various garret
turbos. He said several of these turbos will produce more peak horsepower
than kevin's, but don't spool as quickly for street (under the curve power).
Todd says that Keivn's turbos like (and come alive) at 1.1 to 1.2 bars!
Todd has no problem running stock internals, pump gas, and up to and
not exceeding 1.2 bars. I also had great programming discussions with
Steve at Rennsport (giac tuning), and Brian at FVD. Brain mentioned that
it may take (2) tries to get the programming correct but he was confident
they could do it (ecu gets sent to germany and they will do 1996 or 1997
ecus!) My first step is to establish baseline 60-130 #s on pump gas
and "low boost", then we will try higher boost and possibly ras gas
and see how the set-up responds. I hope this info is somehow helpful
and I am not an expert but am getting a crash course. (I am now the
Woodster)
Marty K.












f

Kevin

John, when you have Gunters laptop within your sights, tell him that I wanted him to show you the RUF programming that he has and did for RUF! I'm going to make this statement and John will be able to back it up with his own eyes.. Gunter and Ueli authored many of the original 993TT programs for RUF.. To make the Ruf package to work one would have to seek some Camshafts.. I had a chance to purchase a set awhile back but I got out Ebayed...

Marty, Todd uses the boost controller on most of his applications. Jean is running one (boost controller) with his Garrett's and Viperbob is running one on his K24/26.. Most applications that I see from Todd have a boost controller!! The Z/C'd line of turbo's are designed for max power under the curve.. I appriciate the compliment from Todd.

Kevin

Jean, Protomotive's programming will yield more HP with higher octane in the tank.. However, for crappy 91 octane the GIAC program is optimized for the Stage 2's.. Again it was custom tuned on the 4 wheel drive Mustang dyno, HP was sacrificed for maximum torque due to the high knock counts.. For those that want maximum performance with 91, should really consider twin plugging the cylinder heads..

Rob 97 993c2

Kevin,
just to understand, do u recommend a boost controller when programming your stage1 z/c hybrids that JohnH. has?
Also, what is the cost to do camshafts if the goal is to emulate the Ruf-R setup?

Jean

DO NOT BE MISLED! I do not think ANY tuner out there will ask you to rebuild your engine for a 520-550hp kit, otherwise they would go bankrupt. If you ask them specifically the question, then they might tell you, "yes it is better if you do, although we have not had problems so far"

Todd will sell you the kit without internal mods, but he prefers if you open the case and work on the heads. Imagineauto, Protomotive, Evoms, FVD, Manthey and yes, Sportec too, will sell 500hp + programs without opening the engine, and they all too, prefer if you change rod bolts at a minimum.

If you tell them you have the cash, they will tell you to open the case immediately, this is only normal, as these cars can be driven at those power levels for a while.

Ueli (Sportec) is an ex RUF veteran, very knowledgeable, and very nice..Gunther's reputation preceeds him (except for a few glitches he had here and there when he was with another company), that is a great combo.

Kevin, just a small correction, Todd K. did not want me to use an EBC, I was the one who pushed for it because I wanted to be able to dial the boost lower as I don't want 700+hp daily with the spring that I have in the wastegates. He was quite resistent in fact because he does not like the new generation of EBCs.

Kevin

Rob = No, please read post 52..

Rob it's the RELATIONSHIP that you have with your local wrench. Unless you are going to be doing it yourself. I suggest that you purchase Bruce Andersons Performance Handbook and read it. It will give you the mechanical aspect as to what is involved. The point that I'm trying to make is, what a shop charges in Seattle is different for New York. And there is a difference between the cheapest and the most expensive shops, you pay for what you get. Another words do you want someone learning on your engine.. "Yeah, I can do this, I've done hundreds of camshafts on Uego's" (smile).

Woodster

see my thread on 60-130, my car is not much faster than stock
and identically equipped car ripped thru at 9.2 seconds at 1.0 bar!
my shop will attempt to find boost leak, premature waste gate opening
or whatever else is causing my lack of horsepower. I was encouraged
to see the good doctor's car with same mods as mine (and fellow renn-
lister), is very fast--I drove it and did all 60-130 times for both cars
(the good doctor didn't think the 140 mph ticket would look good on
his resume and knows I am self employed and otherwise unemployable.
I now believe with stage 2's and correct programming we will have cars
running below 9 seconds 60-130 easily! sorry for the rambling
mk

Acropora

I wonder how much work it takes to swap out the camshaft.