Crownvic

Hi Guys,

I am posting this thread after the one started in the TT forum petered out. The Rennlisters there were very helpful, and they pointed out the advantages/drawbacks of TTs versus other 993s. One thing which was established is that TTs are great fun between the corners, but not as satisfying during cornering in terms of driving pleasure (ie. Raw feeling of precision handling).

The wide body of the TT, C4S and C2S was originally designed for the TT to better harness its 400+ hp and distribute its massive torque to 4 wheels. The C4S with less torque is nice for sticking to the road with more safety, but did get a thrashing by the automotive press even it is still is a great car for its own merits. The C2S - I know little of its handling characteristics - other than a comparison of its cornering dynamics with a narrow C2 in the French automotive press when it first came out: they felt the narrow car handled better in corners. Not conclusive but indicative.

One can assume (I am assuming this, but call your shots if I'm wrong) that the wider track was put on the TT to allow for bigger tires and flatter cornering at extemely high speeds such as those with less horsepower (ie 250 - 350hp) and narrower cars were less likely to be travelling. If your main use is NOT high speed driving, and you find that stock horsepower is enough when driving on twisty roads, wouldn't a narrow chassis be a better choice (sexy aesthetics aside)?

If driving pleasure while negotiating challenging curves is what makes your heart beat, which is the better choice:

C2 or C4 ?

Forgetting the high speed stability advantage of the S versions, does the AWD of the narrow C4 remove much of the nimbleness and "light front end" pleasure of a narrow body 993?

Thanks for sharing your experience!

/Vic
PS. Winter conditions prevent my comparing them directly at this date.

InTheAir

I am certainly not as well versed as many here, so I will not embarrass myself ... at least on this topic.

However, as a C4 owner, I can tell you that the C4 is a lot of fun in the corners, especially when it starts yanking you out the backside of the curve.

There are a couple interesting resources:

1) a great explanation of some C4 handling differences on the track with a 964 C4:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...06&postcount=4

2) a Top Gear video comparing the 996C2 to the 996C4:
http://coochas.com/porsche/Resources...Gear121105.mp4 (you need quicktime to view: http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/win.html )

kkim

C2

David 23

I have had a number of 911 variants over 30 years, and now drive a C4S. I drive it quite alot on the street, and now mostly track. I love the way my Cross/JIC suspended C4S corners. I much prefer the all wheel drive in off camber, uphill, and most other situations where the front starts pulling the car through the corner. It is an amazing sensation that can easily be felt on the street, and is stunning on the track. My car was very good with HR springs, but still had a little understeer. But after doing some work on the car, it is now neutral, easily throttle steered and rotated. I'll take the all wheel drive in a heartbeat. I know others feel just as strongly about 2wd, but this is just my experience and opinion.

TheOtherEric

I think your thread in the TT forum pretty much said it all, and then some. JMHO.
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-turbo-forum/246297-what-is-a-tt-really-like-on-back-roads.html

Acropora

It's smart to get opinions but it's also possible to overanalyze IMHO.

G-Man993

I have owned a 993 C4S for 7 years now and I totally agree with David 23's description of how these cars handle. These cars just come to life when you 'turn the pace and the throttle' up.... the harder you drive them the better they get. If I had my time over again I would still buy a C4S over a C2 or a C4 but that is largely based on other benefits like look of the wide body, 18" wheels & bigger tyres, big red brakes, turbo style front, sunroof, full leather interior etc etc etc rather than handling differences. The one car I would swap it for though is a 993tt.... its got the lot!

My previous comments from your other thread still stand... you will be absolutely impressed with the handling in the backraods of any of the 993 models you mention.... just pick the one that appeals the most to you in terms of look, features, colour, condition, price etc..... just my 0.2c worth.

Crownvic

Thanks guys, great comments!

Eric, I agree. This is likely true from your own reference point, having owned both. I appreciated your candid comments in the other thread, and understand that you switched from a C4 to a C2 to get both more speed and greater safety on the track with a hardtop. I also took note that you believe that a C4 is safer on backroads when pushed really aggressively. Regarding your reference to Martin's comments about 993 accident risks, I don't plan on driving flat out in the turns, but want to enjoy the sinous ballet of tossing an agile and responsive car in and out of turns.

In this vein, after first trying to justify buying a TT, I no longer wish to. So for me the thread in the TT forum accomplished a great deal: it saved me from a costly mistake. While the TT is likely a far better car in absolute terms - one might call it a "supercar" - it is for drivers other than me and may better prove its superiority on bigger roads than mine.

My next thought was to sacrifice as little of its acclaimed torque by supercharging a lighter narrow bodied C4 adding suspension mods. But some posts have me starting to wonder if even in its narrow version, the AWD doesn't remove some of the "Raw" sensation of contact between man and purebred that the C2 provides.

If the almost twitchy nervousness and go-cart like light handling is only found on the C2, I will forsake the added safety of AWD to not sacrifice any of the sporting sensation.

Many have scolded me for asking too many questions. It isn't to beat a dead horse, but to help differentiate their respective qualities. While there is always room for subjective impressions, shared opinions can help one gain reference points according to which one can make one's own comparisons. The suggestion many have made: "Go out and drive them on the same roads you plan on driving" is quite sensible, however I don't live in sunny California.

This isn't the season to be trying a 993 on Vermont roads, some of which are continuous reversing curves with sharp rises and falls: one cannot realistically test each of these cars in the snow to get an idea of how they will handle in the summer.

I will obviously have to travel pretty far South or West to try them out properly this season. I therefore cannot honestly hope to find my own native road conditions in the warm locations where I will be trying the cars. As I would like to try to pair the C2/C4 test trip with a 993 purchase, Rennlist member recommendations are extremely helpful in targetting the best model for precise lightweight handling in sharp turns. Then I can locate a desirable candidate car for sale, but before finalizing the purchase I would test drive the other model taking into account the many helpful Rennlister comments.

I would think that gathering feedback from driver's experience specifically related to cornering handling at lower speeds would be helpful to other Rennlisters in the future. I imagine that there are quite a few posters in the 993 forum who don't have TTs and don't hang out in the TT threads, so I was asking for their opinions too - I hope you will concur that they count too?

The thread in the TT forum brought mostly TT owners, and although many of them have owned other Porsches previously, their obvious preference is for thrust and high speed grip. So I don't see the redundancy of this thread, except for you who have already posted in the TT thread.

I have posted in this second forum a different question. I am widening the audience to more C2 and C4 owners to get a better idea of their differences. I only wish I had not failed to do the same thing last summer, when I bought an optioned out 05 Mustang GT convertible premium for what a nice 993 will cost me. It is when I drove it back to Vermont from out of State where I purchased it that I found its handling performance to be the antithesis of what I had hoped. I then spent more on mods but drove it less than 1000 miles before stowing it away. As a result I am now seeking a 993. Can you blame me for seeking opinions after an expensive mistake?

As Robert Collins kindly said in the TT thread:
Unlike some folks, I have driven a lot in Europe and had too many years of driving near the limits of various vehicles to yearn for ever more speed. I like to go what in the US is considered to be fast, but in Europe would be viewed as a leisurely brisk pace. For me fun comes slaloming through challenging curves, and extra safety is great as long as it does not come at too great a sacrifce of the pleasure of mastering a finely tuned and precisely responsive sportscar.

Regarding the pertinence of my posting this thread in the 993 forum: it has already proven most worthwhile. Jeff is the first to clearly state that the C4 is lots of fun in a corner, the other posts I've read through searches or replies called it either "heavy" or less nimble. in the corners. This is excellent positive balance, confirmed by David, who not only confirms the pleasure of cornering in a modded C4 but adds information vital to anyone seeking a 993 for Vermont country roads, which are often banked the wrong way:
THANKS GUYS!

/Vic

omilu

nothing like coming out of a hairpin turn in a c4, you don't have to hold back

Crownvic

Hi Guys,

I am checking out all the videos at Jeff's recommended location:
http://coochas.com/porsche/coochas-911videos.html

Something seems to be emerging from this discussion and the few videos I have seen so far. Maybe the metaphore of a Lion & Lion Tamer would be the best way to illustrate their fundamental difference?

C2 = wild animal C2 driver = lion tamer
C4 = lion tamer C4 driver = wild animal

This is a caricature. But the difficult to predict typical cornering at the limit of a C2 requires a driver with a lion tamer's courage and intimate knowledge of the wild animal, his C2. The better than predictable cornering at the limit of the C4 allows its driver to himself become a wild animal.

So I guess its all about whether you want to be wild or tame a wild beast?

/Vic

Ray Calvo

You're not Hans Stuck - you'll never feel the difference. Buy what you can find.

Crownvic

Hi,

This clip (thanks for the link Jeff) pretty much illustrates how a rear wheel drive handles in corners. One has to be quite a bit steadier nerved than me if driving this way on the edge of the limits:
http://coochas.com/porsche/Resources...urburgring.wmv

I guess this is why it is called a SPORTS car.

/Vic

ARM993

Thanks Vic. I haven't seen that one in a little while and it always makes me smile. Makes my outing in the car today look rather tame. I enjoy my C4 by the way as I like to be a wild animal. I've got to be way to professional all day at work and letting the animal inside out on weekends helps keep me in check.

ZombiePorsche44

I've driven both on track at their respective limits and prefer the C2. That & I've never seen a C4 Cup Car

texas911

So basically, if you own a C4S then AWD handles best. If you own a C2/S, then 2WD handles best.