David P

Has any one managed to Drift a C4? I tried yesterday and failed

I hired a skid pan yesterday with some friends and we invited Kevin Fynn from driver Dynamics to try to teach us how to drift.

We took an MR2, Audi TT, Subaru Outback, Saab 93 and two 964s (a C2 and my C4).

No problems with the other cars, and I had great fun in the Outback sliding it around.

But even Kevin couldn't get the C4 to drift. The C2 was no problem but the C4, even with a skid pan covered with water and Diesel (and probably some oil from the 964s ) just straightened up understeered once you put the power on.

We tried left foot braking to deactivate the new green light on the dashboard every time the diff locked, but we just couldn't get it to drift.

It gave me huge confidence in the car, especially when comparing to the C2 in the wet, but I suppose if you want drift, the C4 is not the car to do it in.

Any one else managed to do it?



(If you’re interested there are some pics from the day at:

http://www.driverdynamics.com/skidpan.php (no affiliation etc)

and Rob’s pics are at http://community.webshots.com/album/542973717qRlGYy)
where he gloats about winning the autotest in his Mk1 MR2


DavidP

Computamedic

David,

I think that just goes to prove the point as to how well Porsche engineered the 4WD and traction control in the C4. It's exercises like yours which only go to build on the confidence that one has in these cars.

Regards

Dave

Indycam

Hiya David P
I had to know what the car would do in a slide so I found an empty parking lot with lots of oil dropings and rain water , forced it to loose grip and slide . I have had it loose grip a few times on the road on the old tires and I knew that it would regain itself asap so no need to pedal , steer or anything .
I don't think you can really drift a C4 , unless maybe on ice .

garrett376

Hey David - I love the topic of C4 handling - my favorite!
The C4 is a funny car when it comes to handling - a 2wd car when doing throttle-on oversteering does just that - the butt steps out (oversteers) and it's pretty easy to spin. The C4 on the other hand, can't necessarily do throttle-on oversteer because you can't break the back tires free under power - that's really the beauty of the 4wd. So, you can basically forget about trying to only break away the rear tires under throttle, since that's what throttle-on oversteering is about. Instead, in a C4, I have found that because I can't necessary steer with the throttle, it is a much better "steerer" with the brakes. It's not that the C4 can't handle well, it's just different! Having driven both types of cars in a lot of racing (a wild oversteering 65 911, vs. a 92 C4), I like the C4's behavior better. A C4 just has too much grip under throttle, which is its great benefit - and thankfully it's better balanced than a C2 so steering under braking is very predictable.

By trail braking, or late braking into a corner where you first brake later, then carry the braking into the apex of the turn, you can start the car rotating. If you need a lot of rotation, brake deeper into the corner. Or, if you need a lot of fast rotation in sharp corners where you're under power, you can quickly let up on the throttle just at the turn point and the car will slide its rears. This will cause the car to rotate - then when happy with the logistics... punch the throttle and you'll accelerate out the last half of the turn without much worry about spinning. A 2wd car would have a greater tendency to spin with this approach, but the C4 is very forgiving because you won't break away the rear wheels under throttle. To me, it seems faster to be rotating the car while braking - since you're trying to slow down anyways, right? So when you want to accelerate, you will because the C4 won't be wasting any power spinning its wheels.

Of course, car setup has a huge effect on the attitude of your car. I think the wider fronts are crucial, too: I have 225's with 255's on the rear, on the original 17's. If you're running 205's, you will have less of an ability to trail brake because the tires' grip will be overloaded sooner from the braking forces so they won't want to turn AND brake - thus you'll understeer.

I'm not one to tell others how to drive, but I've never had to hit the brake to disable the differential locking. I think it is best to adjust the driving style to the different way the car drives - because it is different. One just can't drive a 4wd car like a 2wd car, unless going in a straight line! The differential locking upon corner exit or four-wheel sliding is wonderful - I love it. Combine the PDAS function with the its nice ABS capabilities, and you can deep brake, late brake, and trail brake just as fast, if not faster than the other guys in 2wd cars!

I hope that makes sense. I love racing the C4. Later braking and holding the braking into a corner is great when wheel-to-wheel racing because I can dive under the other butt-heavy 2wd 911's that are slowing up sooner, before the turn-in point. It's quite fun, and actually quite comforting knowing the car will hold its line, which is why I so much enjoy racing the C4.

(doesn't Peter - PC2 - take great pictures?!!!)

duffman13

I can't really speak for porsches since I've only driven my dad's 968, but as for all wheel drive, it does it's job well. My a4 quattro is really really hard to get sideways unless i throw it to a point where it is beyond my control. I think I've managed a good tail-out drift once in a parking lot.

David P

I was hoping that some one else would PAY ME to stop posting
but as doesn't look too likely, I've just paid up
Is that what your car has got then???

A little unncessary but if you want to keep the jackassess of the tracks and skid pans, they might just end up on the street

DavidP

David P

I could get the Subaru Outback to drift (with a bit of effort), but not the best tool for the job. It really needed a big Sub in the back with some neons underneath

David P

Thanks Garrett, yes that's why I bought a C4 over the C2. I tried a C2 on the track before I bought the C4 and found the C2 too tricky for me, espcially for my first 911. Not being able to act like a complete idiot on the skid pan is a small price to pay for the added grip
DavidP

DustinTarditi

I would have thought tires had a lot to do with it also - soon after I got my C4 (outfitted with BF Goodrich G-Force) tires R&T or C&D (can you tell them apart?) ran an article on popular tires - G-Force were rated as superb in dry but almost scary in wet... So I drove like a granny in the first couple of rainy days - the car stuck like glue though - wet, dry, whatever.

I don't drive it like Steve McQueen in bad weather or anything, but the 4WD traction system must make up for them then. I can't imagine what it would be like with Aquatreads :-)

MARC A. 964 C4

David, Garrett, thanks for some very interesting reading! Needless to say I enjoy the modifications, and DIY's etc... But it's the driving to yet another degree that turns me on... I'm blessed with the French country side roads and sometimes unlimited speed driving (not France) but I sure do miss the tracks and would love to get my C4 on one. A French Porche club, "911.net" offers a track day, I think I'll join... "Anytime you guys want to keep writing about the finer points of driving please do, I sure would enjoy that type of reading and advanced driver's education"
Thanks, Marc.

David P

Hi Dustin,
I have mine on Bridgestone RE55s, which are a semi slick R spec tyre. They are supposed to be rubbish in the wet, but with the 4WD, they were great, Although when they are cold they can be a bit tricky...

kgorman

Good info Garrett!

I have used a bit of throttle lift oversteer in mine to get it to rotate (as Garrett mentions, lifting in the corner a bit to induce oversteer). It's definitely an art, and I am still working on using the technique. But it does work very well.

In turn 2 at Thunderhill I have bad understeer, so a little lift helps get the nose tucked back in. I don't think this is a fast technique there, but works once I was already in the understeer situation.

One other thing FamilyCar mentioned to me is that since he has an RSA he sees on throttle oversteer in situations like turn 11 there. I don't even come close to that feeling in the C4. I just have WOT all the way through 11,12,13. Unfortunatly, he is a much better driver in the 964 than I am, so lead/follow was not working so well ;-). So it was hard to see if a C4 is faster through there.

Anyways, end of random ramblings about C4 handling observations.

garrett376

Next time you're following, leave some space and watch as you can carry more speed further into the turn by braking later/deeper during the turn in, whereas I bet FamilyCar is done braking at the turn in (unless he's got 10" wide slicks, then forget about it!). You can't really use the RSA's braking point, because then you lose your advantage!!!

InTheAir

Great info, guys! Thanks.

kgorman

Very insightful Garrett! I will try it next event. Trail braking in my Audi made me nervous, I need to get a handle on that technique in the 'new' car.