True Enthusiasts - no longer needed
10-05-2005, 11:47 AM
#106
Originally Posted by Pedro356C
That's the basic difference between us...the concept "better car" is vague...compare two Ferraris...a brand new F430 and a 1968 275GTB...which is "BETTER" ? Based in your concept...the brand new one is! Ask me to choose one...guess what! The 37 years old car would be in my garage!
If you had the budget you'd be driving a 997...if I had the budget, a 356C Cabriolet or a 1971 911S (just like the one Steve McQuenn opens the "Le Mans" movie driving through the French countryside) would be parking right next to my 993...
Are we talking about "better" transportation? Get the best SUV in the market...the BMW X5 in my humble opinion...
Many of us think different from each other but we are all definitely "enthusiasts" otherwise we would not lose that much time writing our thoughts in this forum!!!
If you had the budget you'd be driving a 997...if I had the budget, a 356C Cabriolet or a 1971 911S (just like the one Steve McQuenn opens the "Le Mans" movie driving through the French countryside) would be parking right next to my 993...
Are we talking about "better" transportation? Get the best SUV in the market...the BMW X5 in my humble opinion...
Many of us think different from each other but we are all definitely "enthusiasts" otherwise we would not lose that much time writing our thoughts in this forum!!!
I suppose by "better" I generally mean "IMPROVED" in terms of a car's quantifiable dynamics - be that aural or mechnical/dynamical. If one is looking for unmolested original cars, then fair enough - they can not be "improved upon" without changing a car (if that is what wants to do in the first place - it may not be!)
No one is really talking about better "transportation" when looking at just Porsches. The public bus I take to work does that quite well.
Indeed, if I had the budget, I would love a 997. That does not go to say that I wouldn't want to drive and keep my 993. I love the 993 for different reasons as to what a GT3mk2 or 997 could offer me. The 997/GT3 is superior to the 993 in many ways that I strongly appreciate on various days/road/track conditions, but it does not better certain unique qualities enjoyed in the 993. But to appear to snub the newer cars and deify older cars through rose-tinted glasses is hardly consistent with the marque's belief in engineering excellence. Even Henry Ford would marvel at todays technology and engineering available to the motor industry. I doubt he would prefer his Model T over a modern car.
10-05-2005, 11:59 AM
#107
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Originally Posted by chris walrod
The base 996 performs better than a base 993, as I would certainly hope so given the natural progression of technology etc. Its a little lighter, more power and stiffer torsionally. That said, I personally still dont care much for the 996. Simply my view.
I have to believe Porsche still has a loyal following with those who upgrade to the latest model every few years. Maybe to a lesser degree these days. I will say that I feel the 997 addresses many wishes of these loyal Porsche customers who sold their 993 and purchased 996's.
I have to believe Porsche still has a loyal following with those who upgrade to the latest model every few years. Maybe to a lesser degree these days. I will say that I feel the 997 addresses many wishes of these loyal Porsche customers who sold their 993 and purchased 996's.
Chris,
I drive both types all the time and the differences are very very small. The 996 is a little easier to drive quickly but the fit and finish of the 993's interior is superior. And the 993 motor does not self destruct like the early 996 motors.
10-05-2005, 12:45 PM
#108
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Originally Posted by texas911
Ummm, Mr. Porsche Enthusiast, the 996 GT3 is totally based on the regular 996, except for the engine, the other parts are the same, or taken out for light weight.
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10-05-2005, 12:49 PM
#109
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Originally Posted by Mike in Chi
Bravo, Chris, Terry and Jim B (who by the way guys is a TRUE enthusiast who races a water-pumper)
No disrespect meant to anyone here, since I truly appreciate the passion behind your arguments.
But this is essentially an argument carried on by noobs.
In fact, the same basic one has been going on periodically for decades, ever since that soft luxury car, the 911, replaced the last real Porshah, the one with four cylinders. (Four HORIZONTAL cylinders)
The fact is, the 911 was a status car in the late sixites. It was a status car in the 70s. It was a status car in the 80s, just as it was a status car when I watched Courtney *** pull up to valet parking at Ivy at the Shore in a 993 in the mid-nineties.
I was a teenage go-fer in a Porsche dealership when the "Sport-a-matic" transmission was introduced. The purists were beside themselves back then that the factory could cater to such lazy poseurs (although I don't think they used the word "poseurs")
I love my 993s. But I still think the newer ones are great cars, and enthusiasts like Jim B are still racing the **** out of them, and whipping a whole bunch of air-coooled ones in the process.
Yes the percentage going to "enthusiasts" is likely smaller, but that's a function of the huge increase in sales totals they are enjoying. And if your last name was Piech or Porsche you'd be quite happy with the job Wendy is doing.
I'm especially interested in the new Cayman and the 997 GT3 when it no doubt shows up. I think those are cars that are meant for the likes of me. Porsh builds something else for the likes of Courtney.
Just know the marque isn't doomed. Just as it wasn't doomed when earlier generations mouthed the same complaints.
But by no means should you stop the passsion or argument. Quite the contrary. But also know you're going to hear it again when the next generation Porsche is introduced. And the one after that...
No disrespect meant to anyone here, since I truly appreciate the passion behind your arguments.
But this is essentially an argument carried on by noobs.
In fact, the same basic one has been going on periodically for decades, ever since that soft luxury car, the 911, replaced the last real Porshah, the one with four cylinders. (Four HORIZONTAL cylinders)
The fact is, the 911 was a status car in the late sixites. It was a status car in the 70s. It was a status car in the 80s, just as it was a status car when I watched Courtney *** pull up to valet parking at Ivy at the Shore in a 993 in the mid-nineties.
I was a teenage go-fer in a Porsche dealership when the "Sport-a-matic" transmission was introduced. The purists were beside themselves back then that the factory could cater to such lazy poseurs (although I don't think they used the word "poseurs")
I love my 993s. But I still think the newer ones are great cars, and enthusiasts like Jim B are still racing the **** out of them, and whipping a whole bunch of air-coooled ones in the process.
Yes the percentage going to "enthusiasts" is likely smaller, but that's a function of the huge increase in sales totals they are enjoying. And if your last name was Piech or Porsche you'd be quite happy with the job Wendy is doing.
I'm especially interested in the new Cayman and the 997 GT3 when it no doubt shows up. I think those are cars that are meant for the likes of me. Porsh builds something else for the likes of Courtney.
Just know the marque isn't doomed. Just as it wasn't doomed when earlier generations mouthed the same complaints.
But by no means should you stop the passsion or argument. Quite the contrary. But also know you're going to hear it again when the next generation Porsche is introduced. And the one after that...
Last edited by pcar964; 10-05-2005 at 01:21 PM.
10-05-2005, 12:59 PM
#110
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I better stop posting this morning, I'm in a bad mood from dealing with Champion trying to screw me. Think we can all agree that GT3 is awesome car except for weight, and carrying on Porsche tradition very well - just wish the market at large would see the value of a car like the GT3, to the point where ALL new 911s used the same platform! The danger is, at what point does the enthusiast base become so small that cars like the GT3 are no longer deemed necessary by the bean counters at PAG? Hope that doesn't happen.
10-05-2005, 01:05 PM
#111
Originally Posted by pcar964
at what point does the enthusiast base become so small that cars like the GT3 are no longer deemed necessary by the bean counters at PAG? Hope that doesn't happen.
10-05-2005, 01:09 PM
#112
Drifting
Originally Posted by zoomzoom
Pedro - quick question: based on your tagname, do you have a 356? If so, how do you drive it? Like Porsche intended or do you just cruise around? (no problem with either!)
Hi zoomzoom...I'm not criticizing you...my point is: Modern and improved cars are excellent for transportation...it's just my opinion...my heart beats faster for the Porsches from Dr. Ferry Porsche's era...I picture the new cars as fantastic cars but not as cool or charming or exciting as the classic stuff which, again in my opinion, ended with the 993...the 997 is a fantastic car but, have you seen the Ferrari 612 Scaglietti??? For my heart and sould...the classic Porsches and I believe the 993 is the last one...as far as modern cars...hard competition!
Yes...I had a 1965 356C Coupe until a couple of months ago...it was my daily driver from November to March...from March to November a coupe is unbearable as daily driver in Miami...during the winter I used to drive the car all over from grocery stores to car shows...had to sell as I needed the money for business purposes and the car was paid for...hopefully I'll get a 356 Cabriolet by next year, but I'm keeping the 993!
10-05-2005, 01:32 PM
#113
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Originally Posted by pcar964
I better stop posting this morning, I'm in a bad mood from dealing with Champion trying to screw me. Think we can all agree that GT3 is awesome car except for weight, and carrying on Porsche tradition very well - just wish the market at large would see the value of a car like the GT3, to the point where ALL new 911s used the same platform! The danger is, at what point does the enthusiast base become so small that cars like the GT3 are no longer deemed necessary by the bean counters at PAG? Hope that doesn't happen.
The stories I am seeing here in other posts, about about the GT3 are somewhat inaccurate as well.
The Mk.I GT-3 (the first 1400 homolgation models) were very much in the 964RS/993RS mold.
The later models for the US market (MkII GT-3) were optioned up ala RS America style, but the ROW MK.II GT-3 models I am familiar with, are also very spartan. The RS version more so again.
Somewhere in here I smell the claim that the 993RS was purpose built but the 996 GT-3 was not. This is not true of course, both were (ROW market) racing car homolgation models.
Just for info the Mk I GT-3 used the 964 crankcase halves for its purpose built engine. The 993RS cannot claim this, it used the standard crankcase halves.
Ciao,
Adrian.
PS: Ferry Porsche was alive and kicking when the 996 was being designed and developed. As far as I am concerned his era only ended when he passed away, and not before.
10-05-2005, 02:58 PM
#114
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Originally Posted by pcar964
Aparently, you guys are missing the point of this entire thread - the POINT is, of course there have always been status-seekers buying Porshces... But now it is the overwhelming majority of buyers, making the enthusiast market almost irrelevant to Porsche from a market standpoint. This fact is reflected in their new products. Again, people are taking this as an attack on new Pcar owners, when all we're doing is pointing out a FACT that PCNA itself produced!
Perhaps you missed the first sentence of the eighth paragraph you quoted.
Porsche is selling more kinds of vehicles to far more people. The portion sold to die-hard sports car enthusiasts will continue to slip as they introduce additional vehicle lines and approach their aggressive volume targets.
But that does not mean the enthusiast is irrelevant to them now. Quite the contrary.
The advertising agency they selected in their last review, was chosen in large part for their expertise in enthusiast based brands.
I think what your dealer friend shared with you was a simplification of their market segmentation meant for delaer sales people.
I recall reading an article ten years ago about how PAG/PCNA segmented their buyers. At that time there were five categories. I hardly think a sophisticated company like Porsche with a broader product range today, would find fewer purchase mindsets ten years later. (Much to my subsequent regret, I did not save that old article)
I think we may find the Cayman S to be a counterpoint to your argument.
While I don't agree with everything PAG is doing, I don't think the sky is falling either.
I believe that Nostradamus of the North, JimB, said it best: "The 993 is not the last real Porsche. I'd say that claim to fame is for a 911 somewhere far in the future."
Originally Posted by Adrian
PS: Ferry Porsche was alive and kicking when the 996 was being designed and developed. As far as I am concerned his era only ended when he passed away, and not before.
10-05-2005, 03:03 PM
#115
Drifting
Originally Posted by Adrian
Ferry Porsche was alive and kicking when the 996 was being designed and developed. As far as I am concerned his era only ended when he passed away, and not before.
Yeah...he was "kicking" probably mad to see his truly sports car built with a hammer, 5 decades ago in Gmund, with a Japanese look alike interior!
10-05-2005, 03:14 PM
#116
Three Wheelin'
Talking to a Dealer recently, he told me that the 911 body style as we know it will be done with after the 998 series car. From what I was told [I have not verified this but the salesman was one of my friends and has been selling Porsches for 5 years, so I trust him], Porsche has been developing a mid engined Flat-8 powered high end sports car. No more H-6s hung over the rear axle.
Maybe the Cayman will become the "new" 911 and the 999 or 001 or whatever they call the next gen car will be a new GT a la 928......
Will be interesting to see. Also rumored is the disappearance of the conventional manual tranny for SMG-sequential type shifters...guess I'll have to learn how to wrench better and start buying old cars as I get older!!!!
Maybe the Cayman will become the "new" 911 and the 999 or 001 or whatever they call the next gen car will be a new GT a la 928......
Will be interesting to see. Also rumored is the disappearance of the conventional manual tranny for SMG-sequential type shifters...guess I'll have to learn how to wrench better and start buying old cars as I get older!!!!
10-05-2005, 03:53 PM
#117
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However surprisingly 996 GT3 is heavier than base 996 and to me this is where factory went wrong with it. I think GT3 is veeeery cool car but can't understand why Porsche couldn't make optherwise marvelous car lighter, and especially at least lighet than it's base model.
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Flying Finn, you are right on. GT3 is heavier than base 996 partly due to the fact that it uses C4 chassis for rigidity (IIRC). my car was 3050 lbs with 1/4 tank fuel. porsche could have made it 400 lbs ligher with carbon doors and lexan windows etc, like a cup car. heck i would have bought a cup car if it was street legal (i don't have a trailer ;-(
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Flying Finn, you are right on. GT3 is heavier than base 996 partly due to the fact that it uses C4 chassis for rigidity (IIRC). my car was 3050 lbs with 1/4 tank fuel. porsche could have made it 400 lbs ligher with carbon doors and lexan windows etc, like a cup car. heck i would have bought a cup car if it was street legal (i don't have a trailer ;-(
10-05-2005, 04:03 PM
#118
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Originally Posted by ventoGT
Talking to a Dealer recently, he told me that the 911 body style as we know it will be done with after the 998 series car...
10-05-2005, 04:11 PM
#119
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Originally Posted by Adrian
...Just for info the Mk I GT-3 used the 964 crankcase halves for its purpose built engine. The 993RS cannot claim this, it used the standard crankcase halves...
My car's crancase has 964 number and I always thought they (964, 993 RS and GT3 crankcases) essentially are the same (if you don't include the diffenreces required by different heads etc), what differences are there between those?
Thanks!
P.S. Waiting for you book to be published!
10-05-2005, 05:09 PM
#120
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Originally Posted by pcar964
...the POINT is, of course there have always been status-seekers buying Porshces... But now it is the overwhelming majority of buyers, making the enthusiast market almost irrelevant to Porsche from a market standpoint. This fact is reflected in their new products. Again, people are taking this as an attack on new Pcar owners, when all we're doing is pointing out a FACT that PCNA itself produced!(emphasis added)
You want to state an opinion, fine, but don't **** down my back & try to convince me it's raining.
I always believed Rennlist to be a source for good, solid facts.
