Adrian

Nothing should deter anyone from purchasing a 96 to 98, 993. The Varioram engine is superb. Yes there was subtle cost cutting due to the suppplier base being reduced from over 900 to around 350 (source: Christophorus magazine) in 1995 and 1996, but the quality is still very high.
Even the complaints about the 986 and 996 are being made by wealthy somewhat fussy people.
Compared to your standard run of the mill car Porsche quality is still way up there. EVERY model series from the 356 to 928 to 993 to 997 has had its problems. Even the CGT, nothing is perfect. What Porsche has to contend with is that other manufacturers are catching up and of course the Porsche marketing focus is changing. However, it is unreasonable to expect everything to stay how we want it. Life goes on and eventually even Icons have to move aside for the new kids on the block.
Ciao,
Adrian.

Father of 3

Adrian:

Thanks for taking the thread to a higher, much higher level. When is your book coming out?

OH997

Maybe they'll become enthusiasts. When i got my first Porsche (Boxster) 4 years ago I had no idea how hooked I would be. I have had 4 in total, this is the only bulletin board I visit and everytime I am between cars I spend all my time looking for the next one. I may not be the most sophisticated driver or knowledgeable owner but I am definitely enthusiastic.

Adrian

Mid November it is supposed to be in the shops. It is a whopper in size so it takes longer to print, assemble and distribute. BIG SHIP needed.
Ciao,
Adrian.

pcar964

Adrian,

You obviously have a lot of inside knowledge, I have a question for you... What is the cost difference to produce a GT3 drivetrain as opposed to the standard 996/997 units? I have been wondering why Porsche chose not to mass-produce the GT3 drivetrain and use that in ALL models, I mean economies of scale would surely drive the price down somewhat...

JimB

Adrian,
Thanks for all the valuable information. I thought I knew a lot about both the 993 and the 996 but you've taken a really crappy thread and turned it into a great source of data. This explains to some degree why I could never see the big difference in quality between my 98 993 and 99 996 everyone on this board talks about. They were probably built on the same line. My 993 is great but not as great as others claim and my 996 has been pretty much flawless.

What do you think about the recent Excellence Tech article where they took apart a 100K mile 996 engine and found it to have less wear than any previous Porsche engine with similar miles. Real or hype to keep Porsche happy?
Jim

Adrian

I am afraid I do not have this kind of information. I am not sure I would even ask such a question to be quite honest. It has no relevance over anything I do. I only write about what impacts the owner and useful anecdotes as well as the technical stuff. Hypotheticals are too much work
Ciao,
Adrian.

Flying Finn

I can't be sure about the figure but I remember it was/is IMO substantial.
If they'd saved 5% that would've been "normal" and something I would actually expect but the cost difference is much bigger than that.

More importantly, I totally agree about cost savincs (JIT etc.).

Porsche is cutting costs everywhere, not just "in" cars themselves.
As an example: shutting all the lights in the shop instead of leaving them on for the night when nobody is working in there.
My personal opinion is they saved from the wrong places (such as different crancase for "normal" and GT, TT models) but there are many many places of savings that make absolutely no difference in the final product (car in this case).

Adrian

Dear Jim,
I am afraid I do not read Excellence. It is not available easily here in Switzerland and I am not a great magazine purchaser anyway.
I prefer writing for them than reading them
What you tell me does not surprise me at all. The same was done with a Boxster engine last year in Germany with similar results as you describe.
A huge amount depends upon how the engine has been treated. I feel many people think that they can do anything with these engines and they will last forever. Thousands of parts moving at extremely high speed in unison will wear out eventually. The harder they are used the faster this will occur. I bet if I took a 964, 993 and 996 engine with similar miles and all had been treated in a similar way, I would find them to be in similar internal condition. Chuck in an engine which had significant competitive track time and the results would be distorted against the raced engine.
Ciao,
Adrian

speedster 94

adrian
I have to disagree in some Points . I work on 964/993 every Day ,and sometimes i take the Complete Car apart ,fix it on the Frame machine and put it back together . I know these Cars very well .
i am sure if you take a 964 to the Ring and drive it for 24 Hrs , hard it can do it with normal wear and tear . A 996 or Boxster will not even last for 10 Hrs.
Did you notice how many 996/986 are offered in Germany with replaced Engines ? It is not uncommon to see a 99 , 996 and 80.000 Miles ( 140 TKM ) with the 3. Engine installed ( before the 996i ive seen that only on Jaguars XJ models ).
Have you ever see or read the same from a 964/993 ? I have had 964 with 200.000 Miles and they still ran very strong ( maybe a little oilconsumption ) .
I usualy dont work on watercooled Porsches , because i wanted to see what i talk about i repaired a GT3 CS , a 996 from 2000 , and 2 month ago a Cayenne .
So ,whenevr somebody says that these Cars are well build , is either Blind or has no Idea about well build Automobiles .
You did also forget to mention ( maybe you dont know ) that it used to be that about 90 % of a Porsche was "made in Germany " ,in the newer Car i really have to look for a Part saying this ,you see a lot of " Low cost " Countries but not Germany .
I also know a lot of People in the Porsche-world and all agree , that we will never see a Car build as well as a 964/993 .
harald

Adrian

Harald,
You of course can be as rude as you like, as some of your statements in your post above are very rude and arrogant. Just because something is not made in Germany, it does not mean it is not as good.
You might be sure a 964 would last 24 hours and a 996 or 986 only 10, but have you any proof?
I do not share your opinions and that is all they are I am afraid. I hope you and your friends in your Porsche world are very happy running down your fellow Porsche owners and their cars. I suspect that you would not go to the 986/996/997/GT-2/GT-3/Cayenne forums and tell the guys there that their cars are crap
Ciao,
Adrian.

speedster 94

adrian
it was not my intention to be rude , as you know i am from Germany and we are communicating in my second Language . I am glad that i can bring my Point over ( most Times ) and not sound like an Idiot , but only arrogant or Rude . This is not my personal Style , i just dont Know better how to put it in writing .
Of course i meant that the Made in Germany stand for high Quality Products and for us that was something to be proud for , Money was a nice Side effect , a good Product was the Goal .
My Point was that since Money is the matter ,a lot of Parts are produced very cheap , and therefore in very cheap Quality . The result is that the Company is going to be like every other Car maker and not the Quality car maker we all liked it for .
You say that you want proof for the Engines beeing not as good , all you have to do is , look in the Classifieds and see how many newer Cars have new Engnes , can youhave better Proof ?
Of course if you talk to a White collar worker in the Factory he will state that anything is better , talk to somebody in the Basics and they will tell you what it used to be . I dont say that the newer Cars are all Crap , they are just not as outstanding as the older , and more like any other Car . Here is a Picture of my
daily Bread ,as you can see i know a little bit of what i am saying .
Harald

Adrian

Harold,
This discussion will continue to go around and around in circles because to be quite honest you have a different take or slant on things.

I have been involved in "High value product " engineering for more years than I can remember. You cannot lump all these things together under "Build quality".
Porsche have been outsourcing to the lowest bidder since they moved to Stuttgart in the early 1950s. The 964 and 993 have a number of "Made in Hong Kong" toy car electric motors installed, as just one example.
The 964 was fitted with a part which could set the engine on fire. Build quality issue or design issue? The early 993 engine wiring harness had the potential to set the cars on fire. Build quality issue or design issue?
The rear main seal (RMS) issue of the M86 and M96 engines. Is this a build quality or design issue? For most engineers this is a design issue and has been my stance from day 1. The reluctance of Porsche to redesign the engine is frustrating, but not unusual and not unexpected.

Are the current batch of Porsche engine assemblers less qualified than the ones who assembled the 964 and 993 engines? No, if fact I know that many have been there for many years, pre M64 series engine. Porsche training inhouse remains very high quality.

The engines you mention as being replaced is true. However you do not provide the reason for replacement.
Build quality?
Design issue?
Component quality?

Yes the 996 was criticised by the German authorities. However this was not because of its "Overall build quality", but because of the "cheapness" and source of some of the components used.
However, according to Dekra in 2004, the Porsche 911 remained the MOST reliable car on the road. I have not seen the 2005 report yet.

996 parts are made all over the world. So are Audi (one parts supplier is just 100 metres down the road from my place), BMW, VW etc etc.
I know for a fact that at least one person on this forum works for a company which supplies Porsche. They are not a German company and your post insinuates that his company makes inferior parts.

Summary: I find it very frustrating when people make sweeping statements without providing any evidence to support their position. This is why I tend to spend far too much of my time answering these things.
I believe it is important to identify problems and issues and solve them so constructive debate is helpful, but destructive debate just pisses people off.
Sweeping statements like saying that a 996 is NOT built as well as a 964 or a 993 are simply false.
I have driven a lot of 964s, 993s and 996s and for me the 996 has a few major "Quality issue" advantages. They do not rattle as much if at all, the wind noise is less allowing you to enjoy the engine note and the air conditioning actually works
Ciao,
Adrian.

PS: Just to lighten things up here is a picture (hope I do not get into trouble) of the 993 production line. Notice the fully engine and transmisison waiting to be hoisted up into next body coming down the line.

speedster 94

[QUOTE=Adrian]Harold,
This discussion will continue to go around and around in circles because to be quite honest you have a different take or slant on things.
I am working and be active in the Porsche szene for 20 Years now , i do know about the Problems when they are on the road for some years and about the Problems after in use for some Time .
You seem to be more the Bookwriter and writing about things your hear , while we are " in there " .

I have been involved in "High value product " engineering for more years than I can remember. You cannot lump all these things together under "Build quality".

Finally the Product counts and to me it doesnt matterif it is a Design or a Building Problem .
Porsche have been outsourcing to the lowest bidder since they moved to Stuttgart in the early 1950s. The 964 and 993 have a number of "Made in Hong Kong" toy car electric motors installed, as just one example.
Exactly , but that was a small Portion , today it is mainly from low Wages Countries ,


The 964 was fitted with a part which could set the engine on fire. Build quality issue or design issue? The early 993 engine wiring harness had the potential to set the cars on fire. Build quality issue or design issue?
True but all of this was solved after the first 2 Years on the Road

The rear main seal (RMS) issue of the M86 and M96 engines. Is this a build quality or design issue? For most engineers this is a design issue and has been my stance from day 1. The reluctance of Porsche to redesign the engine is frustrating, but not unusual and not unexpected.
we have the 12. updated RMS replacement Part now , and still not solved , everybody knows the Problem ,but you woud have to change the Design and the Production line ,that is obviously too expensive , since some of the Cars are
fine .

Are the current batch of Porsche engine assemblers less qualified than the ones who assembled the 964 and 993 engines? No, if fact I know that many have been there for many years, pre M64 series engine. Porsche training inhouse remains very high quality.

It is not a matter of the workers in Stuttgart rather than the Cheap quality of the Parts and outsourced Companies . The workers on the assembly line today just put prefabed Parts together and have to put the parts in the got .

The engines you mention as being replaced is true. However you do not provide the reason for replacement.
Build quality?
Design issue?
Component quality?
Almost all of them have leaking Problems ( RMS ) and mating surfaces on the
Enginehalves , causing Oilleaks ,

Yes the 996 was criticised by the German authorities. However this was not because of its "Overall build quality", but because of the "cheapness" and source of some of the components used.
However, according to Dekra in 2004, the Porsche 911 remained the MOST reliable car on the road. I have not seen the 2005 report yet.

This report was only for the Roadworthyness over the Years , and has nothing to do with the overall Problems .

996 parts are made all over the world. So are Audi (one parts supplier is just 100 metres down the road from my place), BMW, VW etc etc.
I know for a fact that at least one person on this forum works for a company which supplies Porsche. They are not a German company and your post insinuates that his company makes inferior parts.

I did not say that these Workers nor the Companies cannot provide better Parts , and i am not a rasist at all ( i was a foreigner myself for 5 Years when i
lived in the USA )
But i know that the workers here have a high Standard and would make sure that the Parts are good , while a Worker that get paid about 5 $ a Day doesnt really Care and most likely does not know on what Part he is working .
So Porsche is no more different from others , exactly what i am missing .

Summary: I find it very frustrating when people make sweeping statements without providing any evidence to support their position. This is why I tend to spend far too much of my time answering these things.
I believe it is important to identify problems and issues and solve them so constructive debate is helpful, but destructive debate just pisses people off.
Sweeping statements like saying that a 996 is NOT built as well as a 964 or a 993 are simply false.
I have driven a lot of 964s, 993s and 996s and for me the 996 has a few major "Quality issue" advantages. They do not rattle as much if at all, the wind noise is less allowing you to enjoy the engine note and the air conditioning actually works
My summary : you should look at a few Cars when they are a few years old and talk to normal Mechanics that work on these Cars daily .
Again , i dont want to put you down or be rude in any way , i am just very frustrated in what The Profit -overall-Managment is doing to the Marque i grew up with and still like very much .
PS : I bought a wrecked GT 3 RS today , maybe it will help me to overcome the
Frustration .
Ciao,
Adrian.

PS: Just to lighten things up here is a picture (hope I do not get into trouble) of the 993 production line. Notice the fully engine and transmisison waiting to be hoisted up into next body coming down the line.[/QUOTE]

Adrian

No worries Harald this response of yours is more insulting than the first. Time to end the discussion.
Ciao,
Adrian.