True Enthusiasts - no longer needed
10-04-2005, 06:51 PM
#91
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No offense taken, gerry100. Nor should we enthusiasts be offended that Porsche has expanded its marketing to way more segments than us. As they are not offended either when we keep what we have and don't buy a 996 or a 997, but maybe a Cayman. I have a friend with an '05 tt cab, and he is as hard core enthusiast, with track time, as any I have seen. He just has way more money than me.
10-04-2005, 08:11 PM
#92
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Before, all they had to do for a Club Sport version was lighten it up, remove some creature comforts, and tune the engine and suspension differently. Now, the street cars' parts are no longer sufficient for a Club Sport... they can't simply tune the engine, or the suspension, or the transmission, etc... They need to use different units altogether. Anyone convinced of the superiority of newer cars, might want to ask yourself why Porsche would feel the need to do this.
Ummm, Mr. Porsche Enthusiast, the 996 GT3 is totally based on the regular 996, except for the engine, the other parts are the same, or taken out for light weight.
Hey I love my 993, but the 997 is technically a superior performer, in every degree.
This is the same crap that goes around the 993 board, just like when someone always says that they hate the 996/7 because its SO much heavier than the 993, because its bigger, but in actuallity, its only 50lbs more.
10-04-2005, 08:24 PM
#93
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John,
The GT3 is to the 996 what the RSCS was to the 993. The list of differences between the 993 and the RSCS is much longer than the differences between the GT3 and the 996 so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Personally I judge the company more on what I see happening at the track than on whether the people buying Porsches pronounce the name with one or two syllables or whether they've memorized a Porsche history book. By that measure Porsche is doing just fine. Go to a big club race and you'll see a couple dozen 996 based cup cars having great battles. You'll also see a growing number of n/a 996s running in C where the 3.6L X51s do just fine against 993RSCSs and 993TTs. I'm sure the 997s will soon be setting a new standard.
I love my 993 but it stays at home when I head to the track. The 993 is not the last real Porsche. I'd say that claim to fame is for a 911 somewhere far in the future.
Jim
The GT3 is to the 996 what the RSCS was to the 993. The list of differences between the 993 and the RSCS is much longer than the differences between the GT3 and the 996 so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Personally I judge the company more on what I see happening at the track than on whether the people buying Porsches pronounce the name with one or two syllables or whether they've memorized a Porsche history book. By that measure Porsche is doing just fine. Go to a big club race and you'll see a couple dozen 996 based cup cars having great battles. You'll also see a growing number of n/a 996s running in C where the 3.6L X51s do just fine against 993RSCSs and 993TTs. I'm sure the 997s will soon be setting a new standard.
I love my 993 but it stays at home when I head to the track. The 993 is not the last real Porsche. I'd say that claim to fame is for a 911 somewhere far in the future.
Jim
10-04-2005, 09:54 PM
#94
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i dont think 996 are heavier than 993's. i think it's the other way around.
10-04-2005, 10:05 PM
#95
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Originally Posted by texas911
This is the same crap that goes around the 993 board, just like when someone always says that they hate the 996/7 because its SO much heavier than the 993, because its bigger, but in actuallity, its only 50lbs more.
I have to believe Porsche still has a loyal following with those who upgrade to the latest model every few years. Maybe to a lesser degree these days. I will say that I feel the 997 addresses many wishes of these loyal Porsche customers who sold their 993 and purchased 996's.
10-04-2005, 11:00 PM
#96
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Bravo, Chris, Terry and Jim B (who by the way guys is a TRUE enthusiast who races a water-pumper)
No disrespect meant to anyone here, since I truly appreciate the passion behind your arguments.
But this is essentially an argument carried on by noobs.
In fact, the same basic one has been going on periodically for decades, ever since that soft luxury car, the 911, replaced the last real Porshah, the one with four cylinders. (Four HORIZONTAL cylinders)
The fact is, the 911 was a status car in the late sixites. It was a status car in the 70s. It was a status car in the 80s, just as it was a status car when I watched Courtney *** pull up to valet parking at Ivy at the Shore in a 993 in the mid-nineties.
I was a teenage go-fer in a Porsche dealership when the "Sport-a-matic" transmission was introduced. The purists were beside themselves back then that the factory could cater to such lazy poseurs (although I don't think they used the word "poseurs")
I love my 993s. But I still think the newer ones are great cars, and enthusiasts like Jim B are still racing the **** out of them, and whipping a whole bunch of air-coooled ones in the process.
Yes the percentage going to "enthusiasts" is likely smaller, but that's a function of the huge increase in sales totals they are enjoying. And if your last name was Piech or Porsche you'd be quite happy with the job Wendy is doing.
I'm especially interested in the new Cayman and the 997 GT3 when it no doubt shows up. I think those are cars that are meant for the likes of me. Porsh builds something else for the likes of Courtney.
Just know the marque isn't doomed. Just as it wasn't doomed when earlier generations mouthed the same complaints.
But by no means should you stop the passsion or argument. Quite the contrary. But also know you're going to hear it again when the next generation Porsche is introduced. And the one after that...
No disrespect meant to anyone here, since I truly appreciate the passion behind your arguments.
But this is essentially an argument carried on by noobs.
In fact, the same basic one has been going on periodically for decades, ever since that soft luxury car, the 911, replaced the last real Porshah, the one with four cylinders. (Four HORIZONTAL cylinders)
The fact is, the 911 was a status car in the late sixites. It was a status car in the 70s. It was a status car in the 80s, just as it was a status car when I watched Courtney *** pull up to valet parking at Ivy at the Shore in a 993 in the mid-nineties.
I was a teenage go-fer in a Porsche dealership when the "Sport-a-matic" transmission was introduced. The purists were beside themselves back then that the factory could cater to such lazy poseurs (although I don't think they used the word "poseurs")
I love my 993s. But I still think the newer ones are great cars, and enthusiasts like Jim B are still racing the **** out of them, and whipping a whole bunch of air-coooled ones in the process.
Yes the percentage going to "enthusiasts" is likely smaller, but that's a function of the huge increase in sales totals they are enjoying. And if your last name was Piech or Porsche you'd be quite happy with the job Wendy is doing.
I'm especially interested in the new Cayman and the 997 GT3 when it no doubt shows up. I think those are cars that are meant for the likes of me. Porsh builds something else for the likes of Courtney.
Just know the marque isn't doomed. Just as it wasn't doomed when earlier generations mouthed the same complaints.
But by no means should you stop the passsion or argument. Quite the contrary. But also know you're going to hear it again when the next generation Porsche is introduced. And the one after that...
10-05-2005, 12:26 AM
#97
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Mike - Bravo 
BTW, what's the "official" category for P car owners who adorn their cars (yes, even 993s) w/non-functional weight adders like glued on pieces of CF or AL, mismatched tails or aero parts, or who increase unsprung weight w/heavy wheels just for looks, & let's not overlook those who wear overpriced Porsche labeled garments? Many here, I suspect, are too quick to throw stones.
Raise your hand if you believe that the 993 is the best regular production vehicle that Porsche has ever & will ever produce. OK .. feel better about your ownership?
IMO, much of this thread reinforces the unfortunate, but apparently reality based decades old stereotype of the egocentric, arrogant, holier than thou 911 owner who looks down his nose at those little, ignorant people in their obviously inferior cars. Shameful.
BTW, what's the "official" category for P car owners who adorn their cars (yes, even 993s) w/non-functional weight adders like glued on pieces of CF or AL, mismatched tails or aero parts, or who increase unsprung weight w/heavy wheels just for looks, & let's not overlook those who wear overpriced Porsche labeled garments? Many here, I suspect, are too quick to throw stones.
Raise your hand if you believe that the 993 is the best regular production vehicle that Porsche has ever & will ever produce. OK .. feel better about your ownership?
IMO, much of this thread reinforces the unfortunate, but apparently reality based decades old stereotype of the egocentric, arrogant, holier than thou 911 owner who looks down his nose at those little, ignorant people in their obviously inferior cars. Shameful.
10-05-2005, 12:39 AM
#98
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Originally Posted by Dan 96C2 St.Louis
Mike - Bravo
BTW, what's the "official" category for P car owners who adorn their cars (yes, even 993s) w/non-functional weight adders like glued on pieces of CF or AL, mismatched tails or aero parts, or who increase unsprung weight w/heavy wheels just for looks, & let's not overlook those who wear overpriced Porsche labeled garments?
IMO, much of this thread reinforces the unfortunate, but apparently reality based decades old stereotype of the egocentric, arrogant, holier than thou 911 owner who looks down his nose at those little, ignorant people in their obviously inferior cars. Shameful.
BTW, what's the "official" category for P car owners who adorn their cars (yes, even 993s) w/non-functional weight adders like glued on pieces of CF or AL, mismatched tails or aero parts, or who increase unsprung weight w/heavy wheels just for looks, & let's not overlook those who wear overpriced Porsche labeled garments?
IMO, much of this thread reinforces the unfortunate, but apparently reality based decades old stereotype of the egocentric, arrogant, holier than thou 911 owner who looks down his nose at those little, ignorant people in their obviously inferior cars. Shameful.
10-05-2005, 05:10 AM
#99
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Originally Posted by Dan 96C2 St.Louis
Mike - Bravo
IMO, much of this thread reinforces the unfortunate, but apparently reality based decades old stereotype of the egocentric, arrogant, holier than thou 911 owner who looks down his nose at those little, ignorant people in their obviously inferior cars. Shameful.
IMO, much of this thread reinforces the unfortunate, but apparently reality based decades old stereotype of the egocentric, arrogant, holier than thou 911 owner who looks down his nose at those little, ignorant people in their obviously inferior cars. Shameful.
Dan,
Could not agree more. Unfortunately this is the attitude which has legendary status among the non 911 owners.
The 993 was the "King of Porsche" for its time. The best of the best.
I haven't started the 996 book yet
Is the 996 better? Every 911 series has been in many ways better than the one that it succeeded. However getting back to the 993. The 993 was deliberately designed "NOT" to be an enthusiasts car.
A memo written in 1988 within PAG clearly identified the senior management's displeasure with the 964 design. They said that the 964 was designed for "Enthusiasts" and not for their "traditional customer base".
Sales showed this to be correct. After the initial massive building phase of calendar years 1990 and 1991, sales plummeted. By 1992 large numbers of 964s lay unsold around the world. By 1993 the 964 was effectively dead in the water, its reputation at the time lying in tatters. The Porsche "traditional customer base" had abandoned the product.
The documents I have seen clearly show that the 993 had to be designed to suit the "traditional customer base". I saw documents with many complaints about the 964 from this traditional customer base.
Now it just so happened that the new 993 (project officially launched in 1989) would turn out to not only meeting the traditional customer base, but also be the best one yet in all departments (except one which the 964 C4 still excelled in) and the enthusiasts liked it was well.
However yet again, in the sales department the best was yet to come with the 996. Why? Some of the design features that were to be incorporated on the 993 were cancelled due to cost limitations. These would make their appearance on the 996, which is currently the biggest volume selling 911 series ever.
The 996 saw the return of the Turbo Cabriolet. It also brought us the GT3 which returned the normally aspirated Porsche racing car back into the limelight and back to Le Mans. The 993 GT-2 was the star of the 993 racing series.
Who knows where the 997 will take us, but I am sure it will continue upwards because this is the real 911 tradition. The new series learning from the old and just keeping on getting better.
Ciao,
Adrian.
10-05-2005, 09:10 AM
#100
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texas & Mooty,
Base 996 is actually lighter than base 993 (comparing 1995 and 1999). 996 is larger though.
However surprisingly 996 GT3 is heavier than base 996 and to me this is where factory went wrong with it. I think GT3 is veeeery cool car but can't understand why Porsche couldn't make optherwise marvelous car lighter, and especially at least lighet than it's base model.
Base 996 is actually lighter than base 993 (comparing 1995 and 1999). 996 is larger though.
However surprisingly 996 GT3 is heavier than base 996 and to me this is where factory went wrong with it. I think GT3 is veeeery cool car but can't understand why Porsche couldn't make optherwise marvelous car lighter, and especially at least lighet than it's base model.
10-05-2005, 09:32 AM
#101
Originally Posted by fbfisher
I occured to me when reading Rezal's post above that the glut of 996s on the market has more to do with lease returns than the bust of the dot com bubble.
One data point that would be interesting. If a leased 996 was your first Porsche, how many upon the termination of their lease either bought the car outright or leased another? Do the new cars create enthusiasts who want another, or do they leave their drivers uninspired and looking elsewhere for the next great driving (or posing) experience?
One data point that would be interesting. If a leased 996 was your first Porsche, how many upon the termination of their lease either bought the car outright or leased another? Do the new cars create enthusiasts who want another, or do they leave their drivers uninspired and looking elsewhere for the next great driving (or posing) experience?
I imagine that those who say stuff like "Porsche only made cars up until 1998" are ignorant of car technology, and I suspect they would rather cook their food over a handlit log fire than use a modern convection oven. Sure the food tastes great cooked over an open fire, but surely the oven is superior in many ways (though not necessarily all).
I am fanatical about my 993 and love it for what it is. But if I had the budget, I would sure love a GT3mk2 or a 997. I don't expect either of the newer cars to be the same as the 993, but surely you didn't expect your new home to be like the first? The best option would be to have all 3!
I am grateful to Porsche for having the nous and engineering skills to be able to produce world-class sports cars that are embued with character. They also have the business/marketing sense (not just anorak sense) to be able to fund their developments in the pursuit of their cars. If the 993 was the last Porsche ever made and still in production in 2005, we would be isolated on an island of a defunct car company or driving the newest BM/AMG/Fezza/Lambo. But instead we are able to look forward to the ALMS RS Spyder and the many advances in car technology because of their exploits with the 996/Cayman/Cayennes and soon coming Panamera. Does this change my view of Porsche? No way! Their motorsport history is an emphatic exclamation mark and evidence that we drive some of the most superlative sports cars on this planet.... and for this we should be happy and support the marque.
10-05-2005, 09:37 AM
#102
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Originally Posted by JimB
John,
The GT3 is to the 996 what the RSCS was to the 993. The list of differences between the 993 and the RSCS is much longer than the differences between the GT3 and the 996 so I'm not sure what you're talking about...
The GT3 is to the 996 what the RSCS was to the 993. The list of differences between the 993 and the RSCS is much longer than the differences between the GT3 and the 996 so I'm not sure what you're talking about...
I don't know that much about GT3 and GT3RS differences while I know at least most of the RS and RSCS differences and I think at least when looking at some aspects that should be the case, for example:
If you look at interior differences between RS & RSCS and GT3 and GT3RS they follow similar "pattern" with RSCS and GT3RS having almost no interior while RS and GT3 has carpets in the back etc.
Same thing with body although I guess you could say GT3 vs. GT3RS differences might be little less significant.
With both generations (993 & 996), engine between both of their two "hardcore" models remains pretty much the same.
Even RS is more "hardcore" in some ways than GT3 with it's no power steering and more spartan interior (especially the door panels).
Differences between base 993 and 993 RS and base 996 and 996 GT3 are similar and even though 993 and 993 RS have more changes if you count them as a number, 996 has more significant, sort of "principal" or "philosophical" changes since the they have different crankcase and transmission.
In 993 RS you have more changes that are for weight reduction which I think is unfortunate that 996 GT3 unfortunately doesn't have. Owner of course can do (at least some of) them on their own though!
In any case, whether it's RS, RSCS, GT3 or GT3RS, I think we can agree we're talking about pretty damn awesome cars!
10-05-2005, 11:03 AM
#103
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Originally Posted by zoomzoom
I am fanatical about my 993 and love it for what it is. But if I had the budget, I would sure love a GT3mk2 or a 997. I don't expect either of the newer cars to be the same as the 993, but surely you didn't expect your new home to be like the first? The best option would be to have all 3!
That's the basic difference between us...the concept "better car" is vague...compare two Ferraris...a brand new F430 and a 1968 275GTB...which is "BETTER" ? Based in your concept...the brand new one is! Ask me to choose one...guess what! The 37 years old car would be in my garage!
If you had the budget you'd be driving a 997...if I had the budget, a 356C Cabriolet or a 1971 911S (just like the one Steve McQuenn opens the "Le Mans" movie driving through the French countryside) would be parking right next to my 993...
Are we talking about "better" transportation? Get the best SUV in the market...the BMW X5 in my humble opinion...
Many of us think different from each other but we are all definitely "enthusiasts" otherwise we would not lose that much time writing our thoughts in this forum!!!
10-05-2005, 11:12 AM
#104
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Ahh, sanity has retuned to 993 land. Thanks Mike, Adrian, Dan, etc.
Mike, you were working at a Porsche shop when I was turning laps in my dad's John Deer? No wonder you're the big turtle!
Adrian, get working on that book.
Finn,
You're right of course. I was just countering pcar964's (not sure why I called him John) assertion that very little needed to be done to the 993 to make it a Club Sport but much had to be done to the 996 to make it a GT3. In reality Porsche made massive changes to both. I couldn't agree more on the weight. I'm not sure why cars keep getting heavier. Even the Carrera GT is fat.
Have a great day.
Jim
Mike, you were working at a Porsche shop when I was turning laps in my dad's John Deer? No wonder you're the big turtle!
Adrian, get working on that book.
Finn,
You're right of course. I was just countering pcar964's (not sure why I called him John) assertion that very little needed to be done to the 993 to make it a Club Sport but much had to be done to the 996 to make it a GT3. In reality Porsche made massive changes to both. I couldn't agree more on the weight. I'm not sure why cars keep getting heavier. Even the Carrera GT is fat.
Have a great day.
Jim
10-05-2005, 11:22 AM
#105
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Originally Posted by JimB
Ahh, sanity has retuned to 993 land. Thanks Mike, Adrian, Dan, etc.
Mike, you were working at a Porsche shop when I was turning laps in my dad's John Deer? No wonder you're the big turtle!
Adrian, get working on that book.
Finn,
You're right of course. I was just countering pcar964's (not sure why I called him John) assertion that very little needed to be done to the 993 to make it a Club Sport but much had to be done to the 996 to make it a GT3. In reality Porsche made massive changes to both. I couldn't agree more on the weight. I'm not sure why cars keep getting heavier. Even the Carrera GT is fat.
Have a great day.
Jim
Mike, you were working at a Porsche shop when I was turning laps in my dad's John Deer? No wonder you're the big turtle!
Adrian, get working on that book.
Finn,
You're right of course. I was just countering pcar964's (not sure why I called him John) assertion that very little needed to be done to the 993 to make it a Club Sport but much had to be done to the 996 to make it a GT3. In reality Porsche made massive changes to both. I couldn't agree more on the weight. I'm not sure why cars keep getting heavier. Even the Carrera GT is fat.
Have a great day.
Jim