nothingbutgt3

Thank you for the advice Pete.
For the moment, in order to make the silver 993 a better car i am planning to reuse its bearings and LSD together with g50.21 gear ratio, seeing if any italian producer of racing gear parts understand that offering those gears for +or - half of what they cost in Porsche could open a large opportunity of business.

If I find the very right producer, my intention is to replicate same shape and treatment of the original parts I found inside the gearbox, for even stronger and more durable parts.

For the limoncella project, I took some infos around here and online and I noticed that many go immediately for increasing the displacement, maybe because the RS and RSR were 3.8 litres.

I have more in my mind the fact that the 997 GT3mk1 (RS as well) was 3,6 litres, and had 415 up.

What I think is that 3,6 litres are not few at all.

If I had to choose, I'd rather prefer a 997 gt3 krankshaft and pankl titanium connecting rod, instead of investing the same money onto 3,8 RSR Mahle cilinders and pistons.
What I think makes the very difference is the fact the increase in hp is achieved by rpm increase, with more or less same torque at a bit higher rpm range.

But as first step, I am not going to change the engine that much, it would be easy to get some torque and hp by displacement increase: I'd rather like to have the 993 3,6 engine made and assembled (balanced) as a racing engine, leaving it with its main components, except probably valves, camshafts, ITB, and eventually (advices?!?) intake manifolds other than the black plastic one of the 272 up version, but at least the varioram version or the '7 GT3 RS intake version.

I'd call it a refining process: I am considering not to install the power steering pump, the mechanic is telling that for track use only I could also renounce to brake assistance (but I think I will leave it at its place), and I would offer a much better braking feeling on the track.

What I think is that, if a 3,6 varioram, x pipe, no cat, primary exhaust 3/1, with engine map and standard motronic one can be easily around 300 hp without opening the engine, adding a modern engine management, 12 single coils, ITB, new cams, larger lighter valves, no hydraulic steering assistance, and a racing hand made assembly using less friction elements, should probably bring the hp around 330/340hp.

Of course what Ninemeister did with its 4.0 litres custom engineered engine is impressive (I heard of about 420 usable hp), and maybe that could the second step, but already 330 good boys are a nice noticeable amount onto a 1080kgs 993.

My point is how sharp and crisp the engine is going to become.

Now it's time for the body shop to do the most important job, but any advice about the configuration of the engine is very welcome!

Kein_Ersatz

If you have not come across these posts, it may be worth a read: http://performancedevelopments.com/technical-articles/

Holger3.2

As you said, you're far away from this stage.
However, consider a HEIGO bolt in rollbar as a cage is not really necessary. That's more than sufficient for tracking the car, as flipping over is very unlikely at trackdays as such thing happens mostly in races during contact to other cars, which really should not happen at trackdays.

My HEIGO after height adjustments due to sunroof delete (two horizontal bars still missing) I added also the two 1/2 cross bars.

nothingbutgt3

I saw that cage with U shaped sides to enable the standard seatbelts to stay at their place and at the same time have the possibility of adding one or two 4 point harness seatbelt, but I still don’t know, because lowering the car at CUP height I don’t think it would be still possible to street the car, and for this reason maybe such a roll cage wouldn’t play any role.

but for now, being ready to start the bodywork is already something unexpected and in the meanwhile having to deal with such hard choices, like maintaining the original displacement, original crank, and so on, or changing them is something I must carefully consider, because sooner or later will arrive also the engine rebuild time.

I found a used and complete variooram intake system for a good price, so I was considering if it could be a good job to install onto the step 1 that kind of intake or go straight for the 7 GT3 intake to be used on both the steps of the engine (I don’t need to have two intakes, I am going for two engines, but the car is one).

The mechanic was suggesting me to use the Clubsport rear spoiler adding two ducts (one for each side) and create a sort of air box in order to make the engine breath fresher air from outside the engine bay. Did anyone already go this way?
The idea of having single coils for each plug and a multiple throttle body modern engine management what could I expect would potentially bring in terms of HP?

cup997laurent

Hi , I don’t know the Italian rules but in France if you race in historic series you can have the original matter cage , you don’t need a modern cage . Do you think that the owner of a real historic 993 gt2 will change the cage and loose the value of his car ?
I race the french gt classic series with my 993 gt2 clone which have a matter cage in since 2004 , and I have no problems with the scrutinering .

cup997laurent

I met the Matter guys at rétromobile in February this year and they sent me an offer for my 964 rsr clone .
the price was € 4000.00 without taxes for the cage and € 1400.00 for the right body reinforcement.
i don’t know if Freisinger is cheaper. Matter will give an FIA homologation with the cage .
5 years ago the price was 2000.00 !!! I should have done this at that time......

Talat

Yup, sounds similar to what I was quoted. Just need to decide if I need the headache of stripping the car.

nothingbutgt3

good to know!
and where do they do the job?

What do you mean fia homologation?
just the cage or the car?

because if the car is a clone, its original homologation is street car, not race.

For a perfect done job, as I suppose they are going to do, and a racing homologation of the car, the price is expensive, but acceptable.

nothingbutgt3

I understand what you mean, but an original gt2 received cage and homolation at that time, when certain prescriptions had to be obeyed, now it is 2019, the prescriptions have changed, and if you want a fia homologated cage, it must respect the security requirements of now.

But if you want to make a replica, without any homologation, you can still copy the cage as it was prescripted at that times, even though it is not guilty anymore for true racing, but just for historic events.

this is what I understood talking with a few insiders of motorsport teams.

they all told me, doing a replica of the matter, I will get an unuseful clone, not an homologated CUP clone, nor an homologated street car (in Italy it is illegal everything that is not corresponding the original homologation).

for instance, I can streep the interiors and enjoy removing the highlands glue, remove the air conditioning, the heating system, use homologated wheels, and it is still street homologated and in case of any accident the insurance will pay, but if I change the brakes, or if I install not homologated (for the street) seats, or if I update the suspension the car doesn't respect anymore it's original homologation and it should pass the test at vehicle registration if I want the car to be perfectly street legal.

It sucks, when I saw all those american programs where they customise cars and they sell them without any legal problem at all, and how quick is the way they make all the burocracy.
Here everything, even breathing has a burocracy problem inside: and then the politicians fake to ask themselves why when the world economy has a nice restart after the crisis with an average growth of 2,5%, we "grow" just the 0,2%.

shame on us as a folk...

dura lex, sed lex.

cup997laurent

The cage will be exactly the same as the one homologated for the 993 cup / rsr or gt2 by the fia . For historic races it’s enough, we have only the FFSA technical passport for the car and the cage . I even race my 993 gt2 in the Porsche motorsport series with that technical passport

Against 991 cups and 997 gt3r ..
in France it’s not permitted to road drive a car with a welded cage anyway. Even a 993 rs ngt is not legal. So the homologation is the car’s one , for example I have the matter homologation documents for the gt2 cage and the sticker from Matter with the numbers ....

nothingbutgt3

Laurent, you damn happy man, I totally agree.

What I am going to do, as first step, is to rebuild the body as perfectly brand new (in the fact, better than brand new, because it will be slightly stiffer, just a bit not to create unwonted critical concentration of stress): the car will be totally naked inside, so if later I will decide to add a full welded matter cage, the right way, with all the reinforcements requested, it will be always possible.

But as first step will be naked and the idea I have is installing a cage on the rear, not welded, as light as possible and strong as steel, probably titanium made.

I saw the RSR/CUP empty weight is 1120 kgs, I would like to stay below 1100 kgs.

Now, they call it pitting...I had to buy new cross members...













The suspension setting will be all on uniball, I am going to re-use the side members - adding the solid mounts without tilt kit - and the front A-arms I took off from the silver 993: the top mounts will be uniball but something different than the original ones, suspensions are going to be racing/track 2 or 3 way adjustable.

Bodywork I think it is the most important part, the base on which to base all the following job to be done. I already found/bought the five instruments, the dashboard (without leather, very much racing and far less expensive), both the seat belts original homologated Porsche, the ABS/ABD control unit, the ABS/ABD distribution unit, the tank, which is the larger version I don't know how many liters it contains, and all its related parts are in excellent condition, as are the fuel supply and return lines, while the lines of the braking system will have to buy new ones.

the electrical system is incredibly in excellent condition, I don't know how it was possible, but I'm seriously thinking of recovering it: it will take a lot of painstaking work, it will take time and attention.
Certainly it would be more convenient and less dispersive to find one used, but the idea of being able to reuse parts that were originally present in the car when it left the factory fascinates me.

I have to buy the additional radiator (left side) that was present on the CUP / RSR, which, if I understand correctly, is identical to the one on the right, and also the lines to connect the two radiators.

The brake calipers will be carefully disassembled and overhauled: I don't think it needs more braking power, the car originally weights 1370 kgs and will be 300kgs less.
Then, not having to do endurance, I much prefer to leave its standard system, which is for sure lighter than the one on the CUP.

I'm seriously thinking of not putting any servo assistance on the steering or even on the brake, in order to save some more torque at all rpms.

Perhaps I have found a very serious supplier who can supply me with all the G50.21 gears at a reasonable price, which I will initially install on the 993 silver.

As for the bearings, nothing new for now, they cost way to much, so that, rather than being robbed, I would probably go other way.

Time brings advice.

P.S. I am not at all throwing the parts I am not going to reuse away, I will probably stick them to the wall (or wherever), as a souvenir, to remind limoncella of its history

kingroon

PAOLOP

I think it's a big mistake; an acquaintance of mine has made the same considerations as you, and now, one year later, he cannot get out of a series of problems. Kroon Wires and rest assured

The Eagle

I was thinking the same.

nothingbutgt3

the engine harness is going to be brand new, together with its control unit

being a cup clone, the wires are for lights, instruments and few other components, and of course I must check the wire conditions, if it is possible to recover them, otherwise I change them