ADMs dropping
#166
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LOL. I wouldnt ever pay ADM. I am hoping someone at some point passes a law or some type of penalty for dealers doing that. I cant wait for this market to hit its bottom again and see all the people that stretched over thier budgets due to ADM come back to reality. Its not an OK practice.
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#167
Pro
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Man, I wish I truly felt I could address this. I’m kinda stuck, I pre-traded my car and I’m in the hole on that front. So leverage is in the dealer’s corner I feel. I agreed to 15k on my GTS back in Oct (due here in a month), and I somewhat justified it given half of the ADM was “covered” by my above market exit on my ‘22 RS7. I have signed bill of sale docs with the 15k, so if I even attempted a negotiation I feel like I’d be shown the door. It’s a crapshoot for sure, but I’m in the Dallas market and I feel like someone would step in behind me for sure. May not be their first call to arms, but they’d find a buyer. In the end I’m not in a position to walk away, but financially between the adventitious trade and potential price increase at this point (assuming I’d go to 2024 at MSRP) I feel like it is what it is. Apologies for the logic rambling, but that’s where I’m at personally. Yes, I dug my own hole I’m aware…but pardon my French, F it as this point. Car is almost here and let the enjoyment reign.
Edit: I will say however, which is likely counter to my above situation, the fact I was 6th in line and I was able to negotiate the ADM to 15k I think is a sign. Even at 15k I was also still told I wouldn’t see a car for 18 mos, but when the call came people in front of me clearly passed on ADM. So clearly things were moving even back in Oct regarding who was and who wasn’t willing to pay ADM. In the end you do what you think is right for you.
Edit: I will say however, which is likely counter to my above situation, the fact I was 6th in line and I was able to negotiate the ADM to 15k I think is a sign. Even at 15k I was also still told I wouldn’t see a car for 18 mos, but when the call came people in front of me clearly passed on ADM. So clearly things were moving even back in Oct regarding who was and who wasn’t willing to pay ADM. In the end you do what you think is right for you.
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Ray K. (02-05-2023)
#168
Three Wheelin'
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Guys, you do you, but I won’t pay over MSRP, and if no one else did either, then those cars wouldn’t sell at over MSRP. Its not complicated. I was in the business myself for six years. I come from a family that owned a Ford dealer for 30+ years. My grandfather was the owner and was president of the New England Ford Dealers Association. He was good friends with Lee Iacocca. Having grown up around the business, and followed it closely all my life, I won’t pay over. It fuels the problem. I’ve heard Porsche dealer owners very recently say in the same sentence “we have no allocations……. and then say ………we had our most profitable year ever”. They cry about shortages, and chips and the Chinese market, and some of its real and some of its bull****, but obviously they’re doing just fine if they’re having banner years. I’m 43 and have owned seven 911s, four I bought new, and all for well under MSRP. Porsches have gotten WAY too expensive, and as much as I love them, I doubt I’ll be buying another. My 2019 GTS stickered at $145k and it was loaded. I ordered it with a 7% discount. A comparable car today is $170k, before dealer markup, if any. No way. When this vehicle market implodes, which it will, as more and more companies lay off high paying employees, there’s going to be a massive inventory increase. Those wait lists will all evaporate as the people in front of you drop out because they were laid off and can no longer buy the car.
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#169
Three Wheelin'
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Its not complicated. Its absolutely legal to enforce. Ford or any other manufacturer can simply choose to limit or not send at all any allocations of certain vehicles to dealers that refuse to agree to price caps on vehicles. You sell a Raptor at $30k over? No problem, we’re not sending you any more Raptors. Its that simple. Ford rep strikes a deal with the dealer principal, and if the dealer doesn’t honor it, Ford turns off their allocations. Porsche dealers aren’t supposed to sell over MSRP on new cars either (but of course they do anyway). Thats why many get reported sold, then are now sold as preowned vehicles with 200 miles on the odometer for huge markups. They do this to avoid incurring the factory’s ire and threatening their allocations.
It sounds so straightforward but you know that this is very easy to get around right? Dealers can navigate around this with ease. Why do you think there are more CPO cars with just a few hundred miles on them than there are new 911/Caymans on the lots? In fact it’s common practice to slightly drive them and then trade it among the dealers. Once titled as used, the sky is the limit and they are under the radar.
#171
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Why is it for some folks the "art of the deal" is more important than the actual car? Nobody wants to pay more than they should, but if your only shot to get a 911 in the next year or so is to pay ADM, why stand on principle?
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#174
RL Community Team
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Maybe it’s because a $60k markup is so ridiculous, that’s why. We are humans and we have pride. The idea that the $60k is literally pure greed in someone else’s pocket rubs many of us the wrong way. And it’s for a friggin 911–which while great isn’t even that special of a car.
And to say that it is the “only” way to get a 911 is ridiculous. Getting a 911 is easy. Why should anyone ever be so desperate to get a 911 (or nearly any other sports car) that they will hand out $60k to pad somebody’s wallet for it?
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#175
RL Community Team
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Its not complicated. Its absolutely legal to enforce. Ford or any other manufacturer can simply choose to limit or not send at all any allocations of certain vehicles to dealers that refuse to agree to price caps on vehicles. You sell a Raptor at $30k over? No problem, we’re not sending you any more Raptors. Its that simple. Ford rep strikes a deal with the dealer principal, and if the dealer doesn’t honor it, Ford turns off their allocations. Porsche dealers aren’t supposed to sell over MSRP on new cars either (but of course they do anyway). Thats why many get reported sold, then are now sold as preowned vehicles with 200 miles on the odometer for huge markups. They do this to avoid incurring the factory’s ire and threatening their allocations.
The Supreme Court in Leegin Creative Leather Products v. PSKS allowed manufacturers the ability to set price limits or floors, but left in place the concerns of vertical price integration with respect to price ceilings or caps (based on the Sherman Act antitrust principles).
So, it's not exactly, "not complicated"
#176
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I am not an expert on such things, but I think that would be illegal -- i.e., manufacturer mandated price caps.
The Supreme Court in Leegin Creative Leather Products v. PSKS allowed manufacturers the ability to set price limits or floors, but left in place the concerns of vertical price integration with respect to price ceilings or caps (based on the Sherman Act antitrust principles).
So, it's not exactly, "not complicated"
The Supreme Court in Leegin Creative Leather Products v. PSKS allowed manufacturers the ability to set price limits or floors, but left in place the concerns of vertical price integration with respect to price ceilings or caps (based on the Sherman Act antitrust principles).
So, it's not exactly, "not complicated"
The situation between automakers and dealers is not as simple as other manufacturer/dealer relationships. For example Rolex has rules that official dealers can not sell watches over list, and this is 100% adhered to, Samsung has rules that all authorized dealers of their televisions have to sell at a fixed price. Automaker dealership franchise agreements allow dealers full pricing authority...the only recourse manufacturers have is to limit allocations to dealers who are not following whatever rules the manufacturer has set. GM and Ford have done this, as far as I know, Porsche has not done anything similar.
The dealers (across the industry) are shooting themselves in the foot with their behavior. These markups are a mere annoyance to most on here; but it has a huge effect on lower income customers trying to buy a vehicle they need to get to work. If this goes on for too long, eventually the dealership lobby will fall out of favor with politicians as constituents demand changes. Also, if bad dealership behavior negatively affects the big 3 automakers then the rules will quickly change....the UAW is way more powerful than NADA.
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tmslc (02-06-2023)
#177
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Its not complicated. Its absolutely legal to enforce. Ford or any other manufacturer can simply choose to limit or not send at all any allocations of certain vehicles to dealers that refuse to agree to price caps on vehicles. You sell a Raptor at $30k over? No problem, we’re not sending you any more Raptors. Its that simple. Ford rep strikes a deal with the dealer principal, and if the dealer doesn’t honor it, Ford turns off their allocations. Porsche dealers aren’t supposed to sell over MSRP on new cars either (but of course they do anyway). Thats why many get reported sold, then are now sold as preowned vehicles with 200 miles on the odometer for huge markups. They do this to avoid incurring the factory’s ire and threatening their allocations.
Last edited by NastyHabits; 02-05-2023 at 04:40 PM. Reason: spelling
#179
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I would be ok if Porsche raised prices because increase demand / supply / free market or whatever. But the dealer making more money or the same as Porsche on each car, and getting to pick and chose who their favorite customers are for allocations is not great to say the least.
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Spiffx (02-05-2023)
#180
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ixsomerset I know a local Massachusetts dealer had a Targa 4S allocation back in November. I assume it's gone by now, but I can confirm they had one. I've been waiting for a C2S since March of last year and have been speaking to many dealers regarding allocations. They are all saying the same thing that they have barely received any sports car allocations over the last year. That dealer I mentioned in MA told me received the following in November 2022: 1 of each, 911 Base C2 Cabriolet, 911 Carrera T, 911 Targa 4S, 911 Turbo S Cabriolet. I suspect toph4242 got the T. Hopefully the next round which should be announced soon will get a lot of us who are waiting in the driver's seat.
Last edited by pydpyypr; 02-05-2023 at 06:57 PM.