Hurricane

And I did! Darn HFS thread!

ace37

While climate change theories, laws, and penalties are a separate matter and can be argued to death, VW was caught with their pants down breaking the law. 'Cheat mode' could be enabled or disabled at will by independent testers (so it is verifiable) and it did indeed directly violate and flout US emissions laws. This illegal cheat appears to have been known to high level executives and gave VW an unfair competitive advantage in the marketplace. Further, they ran advertising campaigns about how clean their diesels were! It was exposed by a university about a year before the EPA approached VW. So in this case I would not say VW was extorted as that might imply they are a victim. They were caught red handed and didn't have the courage to fess up.

fuddman

They didn't break any laws. Name one.

VW worked within the laws written by the EPA and CARB. EPA & CARB people are the ones who wrote the crappy laws. And those are the people caught with their pants down when some organization started crying about the "environmental destruction" happening under their, so called, laws. They didn't want to face the public humiliation and take the fall for "screwing up the environment;" so, CARB & EPA publicly point the finger at VW. VW, under threat, accepted their role as a pinata. The press, surprise, surprise, bought the the CARB/EPA story, hook, line and sinker and successfully sold that fiction to the public. .

jimbo1111

Why did they offer a buy back than?

fuddman

If they didn't break any laws, then why did VW offer a buyback? Is that your question?

Part of the penance check off list, I would guess.
When the people from EPA/CARB (or the German equivalents) brand you as a menace to the environment and threaten to hound you out of existence, I would imagine you'd be willing to do just about anything to get back in their favor.
Doesn't work, though. Now, it appears to be Porsche's turn.

STG

Let's not turn this whole thread into the emissions drama. It's a joke overall.

Now the EU is going after countries??

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.ny...ns-eu.amp.html

I think we can all admit that the overreach is unbelievable in the EU. What next? Sue the car owners because they may have had an idea of cars not getting advertised MPG?

Would rather stick to the sales facts and numbers.

ipse dixit

VW lied to the EPA, and to the consuming public.

Maybe no laws were broken, but breaching a public trust is probably worse, especially for a consumer products company.

randr

You obviously haven't driven a Cayman or Boxster

In Europe, in Sept I drove the the 718S back to back with the M2. I found the 718S Cayman an excellent performance vehicle, great turn in, rotates beautifully, tremendous grip - in my view its more dynamic and agile than the 991.1 C2 S and 991.1 base model. Its also very quick its worth noting the chassis in the 718/981 has higher torsional rigidity than the 991.1 ~ 40,000Nm degree Vs. ~33,000Nm degree, basically a better platform.



Sales figures in the round - US market (from Chow4us - P9) - note general drop off in sales in Q4/Q1 each year (northern hemisphere winter) also note Q42016 does not have the December numbers.

fuddman

How do you lie to the EPA and, at the same time, not break any laws? Can't be done. Which is why it wasn't done by VW.

And who, in this case, invoked the notion of "public trust?" Answer: The EPA. Creating their own laws under the banner they call "public trust." And applying the justice they, alone, determine is adequate under that "public trust."

Poor VW, once they were fingered as the environmental scapegoat, they didn't stand a chance.

ace37

They did by using what's been termed a defeat device. That was the whole issue. Others games the test and that was all tolerated, but the defeat device is explicitly prohibited by the law you can read here:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522#a_3_B

Again, disagreeing with the law or penalties or whatever is fine, but VW did indeed break the law.

Sorry for the continued OT branch.

STG

QUESTION TO PONDER: Halos vs. Bottom Feeders.

The higher end cars 911, GT's, etc help sell the other models like Cayenne and Panamera (which aren't inexpensive either).

What happens when the lowest prices model like the Macan comes out and eclipses sales of many of the higher model #'s combined??

From a marketing and consumer standpoint, does a flood of Macans flying around in 2-3 years hurt the brand management of the $100K-$200K+ cars?? What happens when junky 10-15+ yr old Macan's are rolling around the roads in droves.

Do those buyers get tuned off by the "bottom feeder" models when buying upstream when the bottom feeders have had success selling off of the "halo" models?

Will $50-$60K Macans help sell "halo" cars?? Hmmmm ... Does it "devalue" the Porsche brand somewhat in 5+ years??

I think the mass selling models will be dictating the business model going forward and change it forever. For better or worse. Time will tell.

NoGaBiker

Doesn't Benz have models priced similarly to high-end Porsches? As well as $35,000 C-200s and ratty stripped 600,000 km diesel E-Class taxis roaming the streets of Istanbul?

Now that said, I would prefer Porsche was still selling 20,000 cars a year worldwide. I actually like those days (964). But all and still, there must be a way to balance those two objectives.

And not totally analogous, but Chevy manages to sell a lot of ZR1s and Z06s in dealerships that also have Cobalts (is that still a car? ). Ditto Vipers and Darts.

Although the actual dealership experience can tank a relationship like the latter; my wife has a Grand Cherokee that's due for replacement. Neither of us will even look at a current model, despite having been plenty pleased with the actual vehicle for the past four years. The dealership experience is so beneath anything a human should have to endure that they could be selling Hemi GCs for $35,000 and I don't think we'd buy one.

But bad dealership experience isn't something I think Porsche has to worry about anytime soon.

Dewinator

I don't think selling hundreds of thousands of Macans can dilute the Porsche brand that most of the people I meet have never heard of. "Oh you have a Porsh"

fuddman

I read your law reference. Sorry to report to you that your term "defeat device" is nowhere to be found in the law.

You probably aren't aware that the expression "defeat device" was a term created by the EPA/CARB for the purpose of, first, publicly smearing VW and ,finally, as a means of intimidating VW. That is to say, EPA/CARB, lacking any legal basis for prosecuting VW, devised the term "defeat device" and sold the term to the press as a violation of, not the law, but a violation of the so called, "public trust."
Of course the press, knowing VW, and any car manufacturer, for that matter, are an environmental menace, bought it and sold it to the public. "Defeat device," a term used in all sorts of press reports, publically branded VW as a law breaker when they were not.
IMO, It's worth re-stating that the real dirt bags in this sad affair, are the EPA & CARB who, rather than admitting none of their laws had been broken and there by facing public retribution for their failure to "protect the environment," chose, instead, to hammer VW.
Real gutsy stuff, there.

ace37

While I agree with this statement and point about the term being a drum to beat, I also read the law and felt VW was clearly in violation of it. Perhaps we disagree on that. Ah well, it's not really that important - we've both made our points and neither of us are going to change the outcome!


It's looking like Porsche is headed in this direction.

Usually there is a trade-off where the halo vehicles will get some benefit in quality and effective subsidies through sharing engineering data and talent. The problem is, Porsche already has good quality and engineering for their market segment, so I don't see what new benefit they'll capture.

Well, I see the key benefit to the elephant in the room: they need all the profit they can gather to help offset the large losses associated with the VW emissions settlements. It would be very tempting for an executive to simply overmilk the cash cow today and ignore the long term while they triage VW. They'll make sacrifices - that's a given. I hope (and do expect) they have enough of the right people in the right places to make sure they don't lose sight of the long game.