Porsche Sales Figures
#227
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By the way, VW never admitted they cheated on emision tests. Until they were told by the US EPA to either admit their guilt or stop bringing their cars to the US. In other words, an act of extortion forced their admission. What you might call high level extortion. Justified because of clean air, of course.
#228
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They didn't break any laws. Name one.
VW worked within the laws written by the EPA and CARB. EPA & CARB people are the ones who wrote the crappy laws. And those are the people caught with their pants down when some organization started crying about the "environmental destruction" happening under their, so called, laws. They didn't want to face the public humiliation and take the fall for "screwing up the environment;" so, CARB & EPA publicly point the finger at VW. VW, under threat, accepted their role as a pinata. The press, surprise, surprise, bought the the CARB/EPA story, hook, line and sinker and successfully sold that fiction to the public. .
VW worked within the laws written by the EPA and CARB. EPA & CARB people are the ones who wrote the crappy laws. And those are the people caught with their pants down when some organization started crying about the "environmental destruction" happening under their, so called, laws. They didn't want to face the public humiliation and take the fall for "screwing up the environment;" so, CARB & EPA publicly point the finger at VW. VW, under threat, accepted their role as a pinata. The press, surprise, surprise, bought the the CARB/EPA story, hook, line and sinker and successfully sold that fiction to the public. .
#229
Banned
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They didn't break any laws. Name one.
VW worked within the laws written by the EPA and CARB. EPA & CARB people are the ones who wrote the crappy laws. And those are the people caught with their pants down when some organization started crying about the "environmental destruction" happening under their, so called, laws. They didn't want to face the public humiliation and take the fall for "screwing up the environment;" so, CARB & EPA publicly point the finger at VW. VW, under threat, accepted their role as a pinata. The press, surprise, surprise, bought the the CARB/EPA story, hook, line and sinker and successfully sold that fiction to the public. .
VW worked within the laws written by the EPA and CARB. EPA & CARB people are the ones who wrote the crappy laws. And those are the people caught with their pants down when some organization started crying about the "environmental destruction" happening under their, so called, laws. They didn't want to face the public humiliation and take the fall for "screwing up the environment;" so, CARB & EPA publicly point the finger at VW. VW, under threat, accepted their role as a pinata. The press, surprise, surprise, bought the the CARB/EPA story, hook, line and sinker and successfully sold that fiction to the public. .
#230
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If they didn't break any laws, then why did VW offer a buyback? Is that your question?
Part of the penance check off list, I would guess.
When the people from EPA/CARB (or the German equivalents) brand you as a menace to the environment and threaten to hound you out of existence, I would imagine you'd be willing to do just about anything to get back in their favor.
Doesn't work, though. Now, it appears to be Porsche's turn.
Part of the penance check off list, I would guess.
When the people from EPA/CARB (or the German equivalents) brand you as a menace to the environment and threaten to hound you out of existence, I would imagine you'd be willing to do just about anything to get back in their favor.
Doesn't work, though. Now, it appears to be Porsche's turn.
#231
Race Director
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Let's not turn this whole thread into the emissions drama. It's a joke overall.
Now the EU is going after countries??
https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.ny...ns-eu.amp.html
I think we can all admit that the overreach is unbelievable in the EU. What next? Sue the car owners because they may have had an idea of cars not getting advertised MPG?
Would rather stick to the sales facts and numbers.
Now the EU is going after countries??
https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.ny...ns-eu.amp.html
I think we can all admit that the overreach is unbelievable in the EU. What next? Sue the car owners because they may have had an idea of cars not getting advertised MPG?
Would rather stick to the sales facts and numbers.
#232
RL Community Team
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If they didn't break any laws, then why did VW offer a buyback? Is that your question?
Part of the penance check off list, I would guess.
When the people from EPA/CARB (or the German equivalents) brand you as a menace to the environment and threaten to hound you out of existence, I would imagine you'd be willing to do just about anything to get back in their favor.
Doesn't work, though. Now, it appears to be Porsche's turn.
Part of the penance check off list, I would guess.
When the people from EPA/CARB (or the German equivalents) brand you as a menace to the environment and threaten to hound you out of existence, I would imagine you'd be willing to do just about anything to get back in their favor.
Doesn't work, though. Now, it appears to be Porsche's turn.
Maybe no laws were broken, but breaching a public trust is probably worse, especially for a consumer products company.
#233
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![](https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/500x368/p_sales_428bf9e74b2720edeb4899fec92a0a1a2ec15f34.jpg)
Sales figures in the round - US market (from Chow4us - P9) - note general drop off in sales in Q4/Q1 each year (northern hemisphere winter) also note Q42016 does not have the December numbers.
Last edited by randr; 12-11-2016 at 12:48 AM.
#234
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And who, in this case, invoked the notion of "public trust?" Answer: The EPA. Creating their own laws under the banner they call "public trust." And applying the justice they, alone, determine is adequate under that "public trust."
Poor VW, once they were fingered as the environmental scapegoat, they didn't stand a chance.
#235
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They did by using what's been termed a defeat device. That was the whole issue. Others games the test and that was all tolerated, but the defeat device is explicitly prohibited by the law you can read here:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522#a_3_B
Again, disagreeing with the law or penalties or whatever is fine, but VW did indeed break the law.
Sorry for the continued OT branch.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522#a_3_B
Again, disagreeing with the law or penalties or whatever is fine, but VW did indeed break the law.
Sorry for the continued OT branch.
#236
Race Director
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QUESTION TO PONDER: Halos vs. Bottom Feeders.
The higher end cars 911, GT's, etc help sell the other models like Cayenne and Panamera (which aren't inexpensive either).
What happens when the lowest prices model like the Macan comes out and eclipses sales of many of the higher model #'s combined??
From a marketing and consumer standpoint, does a flood of Macans flying around in 2-3 years hurt the brand management of the $100K-$200K+ cars?? What happens when junky 10-15+ yr old Macan's are rolling around the roads in droves.
Do those buyers get tuned off by the "bottom feeder" models when buying upstream when the bottom feeders have had success selling off of the "halo" models?
Will $50-$60K Macans help sell "halo" cars?? Hmmmm ... Does it "devalue" the Porsche brand somewhat in 5+ years??
I think the mass selling models will be dictating the business model going forward and change it forever. For better or worse. Time will tell.
The higher end cars 911, GT's, etc help sell the other models like Cayenne and Panamera (which aren't inexpensive either).
What happens when the lowest prices model like the Macan comes out and eclipses sales of many of the higher model #'s combined??
From a marketing and consumer standpoint, does a flood of Macans flying around in 2-3 years hurt the brand management of the $100K-$200K+ cars?? What happens when junky 10-15+ yr old Macan's are rolling around the roads in droves.
Do those buyers get tuned off by the "bottom feeder" models when buying upstream when the bottom feeders have had success selling off of the "halo" models?
Will $50-$60K Macans help sell "halo" cars?? Hmmmm ... Does it "devalue" the Porsche brand somewhat in 5+ years??
I think the mass selling models will be dictating the business model going forward and change it forever. For better or worse. Time will tell.
Last edited by STG; 12-11-2016 at 09:50 AM.
#237
Drifting
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Doesn't Benz have models priced similarly to high-end Porsches? As well as $35,000 C-200s and ratty stripped 600,000 km diesel E-Class taxis roaming the streets of Istanbul?
Now that said, I would prefer Porsche was still selling 20,000 cars a year worldwide. I actually like those days (964). But all and still, there must be a way to balance those two objectives.
And not totally analogous, but Chevy manages to sell a lot of ZR1s and Z06s in dealerships that also have Cobalts (is that still a car?
). Ditto Vipers and Darts.
Although the actual dealership experience can tank a relationship like the latter; my wife has a Grand Cherokee that's due for replacement. Neither of us will even look at a current model, despite having been plenty pleased with the actual vehicle for the past four years. The dealership experience is so beneath anything a human should have to endure that they could be selling Hemi GCs for $35,000 and I don't think we'd buy one.
But bad dealership experience isn't something I think Porsche has to worry about anytime soon.
Now that said, I would prefer Porsche was still selling 20,000 cars a year worldwide. I actually like those days (964). But all and still, there must be a way to balance those two objectives.
And not totally analogous, but Chevy manages to sell a lot of ZR1s and Z06s in dealerships that also have Cobalts (is that still a car?
![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Although the actual dealership experience can tank a relationship like the latter; my wife has a Grand Cherokee that's due for replacement. Neither of us will even look at a current model, despite having been plenty pleased with the actual vehicle for the past four years. The dealership experience is so beneath anything a human should have to endure that they could be selling Hemi GCs for $35,000 and I don't think we'd buy one.
But bad dealership experience isn't something I think Porsche has to worry about anytime soon.
#239
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They did by using what's been termed a defeat device. That was the whole issue. Others games the test and that was all tolerated, but the defeat device is explicitly prohibited by the law you can read here:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522#a_3_B
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522#a_3_B
You probably aren't aware that the expression "defeat device" was a term created by the EPA/CARB for the purpose of, first, publicly smearing VW and ,finally, as a means of intimidating VW. That is to say, EPA/CARB, lacking any legal basis for prosecuting VW, devised the term "defeat device" and sold the term to the press as a violation of, not the law, but a violation of the so called, "public trust."
Of course the press, knowing VW, and any car manufacturer, for that matter, are an environmental menace, bought it and sold it to the public. "Defeat device," a term used in all sorts of press reports, publically branded VW as a law breaker when they were not.
IMO, It's worth re-stating that the real dirt bags in this sad affair, are the EPA & CARB who, rather than admitting none of their laws had been broken and there by facing public retribution for their failure to "protect the environment," chose, instead, to hammer VW.
Real gutsy stuff, there.
#240
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Usually there is a trade-off where the halo vehicles will get some benefit in quality and effective subsidies through sharing engineering data and talent. The problem is, Porsche already has good quality and engineering for their market segment, so I don't see what new benefit they'll capture.
Well, I see the key benefit to the elephant in the room: they need all the profit they can gather to help offset the large losses associated with the VW emissions settlements. It would be very tempting for an executive to simply overmilk the cash cow today and ignore the long term while they triage VW. They'll make sacrifices - that's a given. I hope (and do expect) they have enough of the right people in the right places to make sure they don't lose sight of the long game.