C2S vs C4S
Racer
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 322
Likes: 5
It isn't so much torque steer as the unnatural sensation of steering with something else attached to the wheels, making them do something other than what the steering wheel is commanding them to do. This is one of the reasons I got rid of the GT-R. It never had torque steer, just unnatural steering. Same reason I don't like the Gallardo and the R8. 110 extra pounds is never a good thing, either.
As for better in rain and snow, I say rubbish to AWD. Rain should never be a problem if there is tread on the tires. Snow is best handled with proper snow tires, not AWD. I never have any issues with RWD cars equipped with winter tires in snow, in fact they are fun to drive. A 911, with the rear weight bias, ought to be a phenomenal snow machine in RWD with good winter tires.
As for better in rain and snow, I say rubbish to AWD. Rain should never be a problem if there is tread on the tires. Snow is best handled with proper snow tires, not AWD. I never have any issues with RWD cars equipped with winter tires in snow, in fact they are fun to drive. A 911, with the rear weight bias, ought to be a phenomenal snow machine in RWD with good winter tires.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 599
Likes: 2
From: Sussex, UK
Yep. LOL! A P-Zero in 305/30/20 ($426) cost $7.00 more than a 295/30/20 ($419). $14.00 total. That's less than 3 Starbuck's Jamaican Blue Mountain Grande Clovers, double cup. 991 owners are seeing great tires wear, well above 10,000 miles. Heck, my car with just under 12,000 miles still has 5/32's on the rear and 7's up front. Michelin Super Sports has a $53/tire spread ($428 vs $375). *all Tire Rack pricing
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 599
Likes: 2
From: Sussex, UK
Presumably a rear mounted engine with front steering is less susceptible to torque steer in the first place?
I am astonished we're now debating C4 v C2... I bought the C4 predominantly for the same reasons as Lex but wouldn't think twice about questioning someone who chose c2 for the opposite reason.... I'd still look and admire... It's what men do every day lol.
I am astonished we're now debating C4 v C2... I bought the C4 predominantly for the same reasons as Lex but wouldn't think twice about questioning someone who chose c2 for the opposite reason.... I'd still look and admire... It's what men do every day lol.
Race Car
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 63
That's nice but the subject here is the Porsche 911, nothing to do with anyone else's stab at trying to make a car.
Usually when comparing cars they are far apart. The one time I was able to drive back-to-back was a 997 GTS and C4S. Differences in terms of steering feel were surprisingly small. Yes the GTS had a bit more responsive or lively feel to it, but really when you think about it most of that is not truly steering it is more due to balance. Any 911 for example, will feel different with a full tank of gas compared to nearly empty. The difference of around 80 lbs is only about half what AWD adds, but the tank is all one place while AWD weight is spread around more, I'd guess around 50 of the extra 150 lbs up front. Anyway, this is for people who've never driven these variants to compare (and maybe never will) just to give everyone some idea of the magnitude of what we're talking about. Go back far enough (or talk about anything other than a Porsche) and these differences are likely a lot bigger. Today they are vanishingly small, down to the difference in how much gas is in the tank- which in case anyone doubts this please read one of the many reviews saying the C4S steering might even feel a little better than the C2S.
Also anyone saying 110 lbs is never a good thing, you have no argument with me. But you might want to talk a bit with Andreas Preuninger or Dr. Franz-Steffen Walliser, the lead guys behind the GT3 and 918 respectively. Both cars are widely regarded as state-of-the art driver's and performance cars. The GT3 uses PDK and RAS, both of which added significant weight. The 918 weighs 3,620 lbs, and that's the lightweight Weissach version. It would seem that there is weight… and then there is weight.
And, come to think of it, the 918 is all wheel drive.
Usually when comparing cars they are far apart. The one time I was able to drive back-to-back was a 997 GTS and C4S. Differences in terms of steering feel were surprisingly small. Yes the GTS had a bit more responsive or lively feel to it, but really when you think about it most of that is not truly steering it is more due to balance. Any 911 for example, will feel different with a full tank of gas compared to nearly empty. The difference of around 80 lbs is only about half what AWD adds, but the tank is all one place while AWD weight is spread around more, I'd guess around 50 of the extra 150 lbs up front. Anyway, this is for people who've never driven these variants to compare (and maybe never will) just to give everyone some idea of the magnitude of what we're talking about. Go back far enough (or talk about anything other than a Porsche) and these differences are likely a lot bigger. Today they are vanishingly small, down to the difference in how much gas is in the tank- which in case anyone doubts this please read one of the many reviews saying the C4S steering might even feel a little better than the C2S.
Also anyone saying 110 lbs is never a good thing, you have no argument with me. But you might want to talk a bit with Andreas Preuninger or Dr. Franz-Steffen Walliser, the lead guys behind the GT3 and 918 respectively. Both cars are widely regarded as state-of-the art driver's and performance cars. The GT3 uses PDK and RAS, both of which added significant weight. The 918 weighs 3,620 lbs, and that's the lightweight Weissach version. It would seem that there is weight… and then there is weight.
And, come to think of it, the 918 is all wheel drive.
Race Car
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 63
Presumably a rear mounted engine with front steering is less susceptible to torque steer in the first place?
I am astonished we're now debating C4 v C2... I bought the C4 predominantly for the same reasons as Lex but wouldn't think twice about questioning someone who chose c2 for the opposite reason.... I'd still look and admire... It's what men do every day lol.
I am astonished we're now debating C4 v C2... I bought the C4 predominantly for the same reasons as Lex but wouldn't think twice about questioning someone who chose c2 for the opposite reason.... I'd still look and admire... It's what men do every day lol.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 599
Likes: 2
From: Sussex, UK
You are right of course... I'm just getting protective in my old age... That and the fact I loved the look of the 991 'period' before I'd ever driven one or knew what the differences were (read 12 months ago)...
Pro
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 533
Likes: 5
From: Saratoga Springs, NY
<<<@!1!@>>>
That's because there hasn't been noticeable torque steer on any 911 since at least the 993's. I have driven 993 C4S & TT, 996 Turbo, all of them on street, track and autocross, and 997 C4S on the street. None of them exhibited any torque steer at all. By the way I wasn't picking on anyone in particular. That would be unfair, since nobody got it right. All the same, I get what people are trying to describe.
Now given that Porsche had (assuming it was ever there to begin with) eliminated torque steer as far back as those earlier generations, well then to me it is inconceivable for it to now appear in the 991.
Inconceivable! High Quality - YouTube
That's because there hasn't been noticeable torque steer on any 911 since at least the 993's. I have driven 993 C4S & TT, 996 Turbo, all of them on street, track and autocross, and 997 C4S on the street. None of them exhibited any torque steer at all. By the way I wasn't picking on anyone in particular. That would be unfair, since nobody got it right. All the same, I get what people are trying to describe.
Now given that Porsche had (assuming it was ever there to begin with) eliminated torque steer as far back as those earlier generations, well then to me it is inconceivable for it to now appear in the 991.
Inconceivable! High Quality - YouTube
Perhaps this is question of symantics....let's not use the phrase "torque steer".
Let's simply say the steering is" less pure" in AWD because of the uneven front-wheel turning upon acceleration due to different grip factors on each individual wheel because of omnipresent surface irregularities. Each front wheel behaves in a unique manner in terms of applying the front-drive force. That is consequently a more complex response than no drive on the front wheels. How's that?
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,054
Likes: 9
From: Los Angeles, CA
For me, living in a warm environment, the choice was C2S. It costs less which is a big deal. I prefer the C4S wide body. The deal breaker however was the light strip, which I don't like, but that's just personal choice. If GTS was around when I bought my car, maybe I would've picked that.
Rennlist Stories
The Best Porsche Posts for Porsche Enthusiasts
9 Features and Characteristics That Only Porsche People Understand
Verdad Gallardo
I've Written 500 Rennlist Articles: Here's How Porsche Has Changed Along the Way
Joe Kucinski
10 Most Unnecessary Porsches Ever Built (And Why We Love Them)
Verdad Gallardo
Porsche 911 GT3 S/C vs 718 Spyder RS: 10 Categories, One Winner
Joe Kucinski
This Builder Is Turning Heads With Its Slantnose 911 Creation
Verdad Gallardo
Porsche 911 GT3 Artisan Edition Pays Homage to Japanese Culture
Verdad Gallardo
Porsche Reveals Coupe Variant of the Electric Cayenne With a Fresh Look
Verdad Gallardo
10 Porsche Colors That Have More Personality Than Most People
Verdad Gallardo
Guntherwerks' Final Speedster Creation Is the Ultimate Porsche Restomod
Verdad Gallardo
Banned
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,650
Likes: 669
As to the weight issue, yes the C4S comes with additional weight. But it's all in the front, which is not the worst place for it.
AutoX
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: South Africa
Talk about thread Revival!
Sitting in a predicment myself. I am looking at getting into a 991.1 , I love the fat ***, but the rear wheel drive i think would
be more fun, and the GTS is just out of my budget.
I see the last posts were around 2014. Obviously now the 991.1 has been around a lot longer. Any more opinions?
Sitting in a predicment myself. I am looking at getting into a 991.1 , I love the fat ***, but the rear wheel drive i think would
be more fun, and the GTS is just out of my budget.
I see the last posts were around 2014. Obviously now the 991.1 has been around a lot longer. Any more opinions?
Banned
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 4,389
Likes: 47
From: Where aspirations are natural
Talk about thread Revival!
Sitting in a predicment myself. I am looking at getting into a 991.1 , I love the fat ***, but the rear wheel drive i think would
be more fun, and the GTS is just out of my budget.
I see the last posts were around 2014. Obviously now the 991.1 has been around a lot longer. Any more opinions?
Sitting in a predicment myself. I am looking at getting into a 991.1 , I love the fat ***, but the rear wheel drive i think would
be more fun, and the GTS is just out of my budget.
I see the last posts were around 2014. Obviously now the 991.1 has been around a lot longer. Any more opinions?
Banned
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 4,389
Likes: 47
From: Where aspirations are natural
There is no difference in performance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUkX...ature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSKP...ature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUkX...ature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSKP...ature=youtu.be
Pro
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 607
Likes: 282
From: Bay Area, CA
Talk about thread Revival!
Sitting in a predicment myself. I am looking at getting into a 991.1 , I love the fat ***, but the rear wheel drive i think would
be more fun, and the GTS is just out of my budget.
I see the last posts were around 2014. Obviously now the 991.1 has been around a lot longer. Any more opinions?
Sitting in a predicment myself. I am looking at getting into a 991.1 , I love the fat ***, but the rear wheel drive i think would
be more fun, and the GTS is just out of my budget.
I see the last posts were around 2014. Obviously now the 991.1 has been around a lot longer. Any more opinions?
When I did my shopping, I was fortunate to be able to line up both a S and 4S next to each other. The added rear width of the 4S is almost unnoticeable. I was expecting more of an obvious difference similar to C7 corvette narrow and wide body models. But I will say the difference between the S and Turbo/GT3 RS rear width is very noticeable.
The S being RWD had me a little concerned but after several spirited drives in fairly cold and slightly wet weather (I did my shopping in Feb), I was really surprised how well the S handled. It never felt unsafe but granted I was driving on a good all season performance tires.
Since neither of the primary factors (extra width and concern about RWD in poor conditions) turned out to be all that important, I just included the S in my searching.
At the time of my decision, it just turned out that the better deal and spec available was on the S. Had the circumstances been reversed, I would have been happy to take the 4S.
