lunarx

Petevb, you bring up some good points.

I do think it is unforgivable that Porsche neutered the Boxter and Cayman.
Why even offer the car, if they need to stoop that low, to protect another model.

I also think Porsche is wasting money making all those different sizes of Flat 6.
They should just perfect one (maybey 2) and run them, in all their glory, in the Boxter/Cayman/Carrera.

I get they are manipulating buyers and I can only vote with not buying the product.
I will buy anything else, instead of a Boxter/Cayman, because of this.

I even stayed away from Porsche altogether, until the 991, because this is the first time they seemed like they went all out and delivered a properly designed Carrera S.
They even went as far as to compete with a previous generation GT3.

They had Stingray and Merc GT performance, years before there were Stingrays and Merc GT's.
GM/MB/BMW had to play catch-up to a Carrera S.

I believe they delivered an all out effort on the 991 NA 3.8, as proven by the expensive PowerKit adding hardly any real world performance increase.
I don't think any other NA 6 cylinder matches the power.

I think the GT3 cars, by nature of being NA, will trade low end power for top end power.
I don't believe that was manipulation, they just did, what race oriented cars do, to get the incredible top end power.
It is 80HP more than a Carrera S, on the top end, out of the same displacement.

If they bolt turbos to a 6 cyl engine and don't realize 460+HP, then they are sandbagging.
I can't see people falling for that, when other manufacturers are pushing the envelope.
You are right that it's OK to torque manage it (for traction reasons) but its not OK to limit the peak power.

It all kind of supports the argument; that a max effort NA engine makes more sense, than a Turbo engine, that has to be excessively torque managed by computers, because it's beyond a drivers ability to control the abrupt power surges.

For the record, I would embrace the new Turbos, if they are built to their full power potential and offered in AWD.
(Much like the current 991 Turbo, which I would also embrace.)
After all, abrupt power surges can be fun

Petevb

Here's what I think. Performance wise, Porsche is sandbagging, even with your 991 Carrera S. They have been for years, at least since the first 911. And more than that, they should be...

Go back 14 years: The hottest Vette was the 385 hp Z06, 85 hp up on the hottest Carrera and about 20k cheaper, 35 hp down on the Turbo but less than half the price. Today the Z06 is still 20k cheaper than a Carrera S, and still well less than half the price of the Turbo S. Yet it's got a 250 hp advantage on the Carrera S, 90 hp advantage on the Turbo S. In both case the Z06 has improved its power to weight ratio 20% vs Porsche without a corresponding increase in price.

The Z06 isn't alone in gaining on Porsche. Mercedes, Jaguar, even Ferrari are getting faster far more quickly than Porsche is, both for the money and in absolute terms:


(light blue dots above are all of Porsche's current cars, log scale for price, power to weight on the vertical axis higher is better)

So what the hell happened? Did Porsche engineers fall asleep at the wheel? Did they decide power isn't actually that important after all? Seems unlikely...

Porsche could easily play this game if they chose to, and win. We know the engine in the base Cayman is nearly identical to the Carrera S, and because of this it costs essentially the same. Throw 400 hp in the Cayman, bigger brakes and suspension, same profit margin for 55k and go Corvette hunting...

Two problems with this. First, who's going to buy the 911 for twice the price unless they bump power there too? Second, 400 hp in a 2950 lb car is fast. As in far too fast for many to enjoy on the street. Sure if you've got an autobahn or racetrack in your backyard all's well, but it's nearly the power to weight ratio that gave the 996 GT2 its widow-maker reputation. Most people think they want a car that fast, but when you're out on the road rather than at the bar bragging to your buddies, many wouldn't actually enjoy it most of the time.

That said tires and traction control have come a long way over the last decade, and that type of power to weight ratio isn't going to kill you today. But if the base Cayman runs 7.5:1 lbs per hp, the Carrera would need what, 500 hp to justify its price? We know that's not too difficult either: the 9A1 engine in the Carrera was designed with 4.0 liters in mind, borrow the head from the GT3 and suddenly the Carrera is gunning for the Z06. From the Carrera S model on up just start cranking in boost and things get really interesting...

Except now these cars are really are way, way too fast. Remember group B rally from the 80s? Wickedly fast and powerful cars that even the best drivers couldn't keep on the road, they shut the series after a few too many died... These cars we're talking about, and the Ferrari F12 up on that chart- that's how fast they are. If the best in the world couldn't handle them, even with 4WD, what hope do we have? After all having the money and the skill for a car that fast are two very different things.

Corvette doesn't need to worry about this. The Z06 is the fastest thing they make, and only the top craziest half percent of their customers will buy one. But in Porsche's case, if your lower mid-range car is that fast, where do you go from there?

Porsche saw this problem earlier than most, and they are getting off the HP train to the extent that they can. Customers are still willing to pay for power, and those that track will still even enjoy more of it. But for the mainstream cheap power is a problem more than an advantage. So Porsche plays the game only as much as it needs to, dribbling it out 10, 20 hp at a time rather than in big chunks like the competition. And honestly, for most of their customers, this is exactly the right thing.

This is not to say that Porsche engineers are not doing amazing things and pushing as hard as they can in other areas. In particular designing a chassis that makes all of this power usable is no easy feat, and where other manufactures turn horses into tire smoke or leave the traction control light constantly blinking, Porsche manages a balanced, somewhat compact, highly usable package. But make no mistake- in raw performance virtually all of their cars are held back, and quite intentionally.

You say you'd never consider a Cayman or Boxster because it's intentionally de-tuned, but you can flip this around: They get virtually the same engine, much of the chassis, etc for half the price. So you payed what, 20k of the price difference for different pistons, cylinders and a crank that cost Porsche essentially no more money? To each their own, but when you look at it that way who's getting the deal?

At the end of the day, slow or fast, neutered or tuned, entry level or top of the range, they are virtually all very good cars. Made more so, and cheaper, exactly through this parts sharing and game playing. If games were not played there would be no base Boxster, etc and that would be a shame because they are some of the best street cars on the road. Thus we can't get too upset on one level.

On another, however, I hear you: it does suck getting played, and with Porsche's pricing model (the more you want something, the more we'll charge) it's hard not to feel... played...

lunarx

Petevb,

You are right, that there does need to be a low power base model, for the "female" demographic.
However, that model should also have a significant fuel economy increase, which is not really the case now.

Also, isnt there only about a 150 lb weight difference between a Carrera and Cayman?
Therefore the power to weight ratios would be very similar between the 2 models, if they shared engines.
It would mean the 911 gets edged out a bit, but it should be able to handle that.
It can just go more upmarket on luxury and technology to compensate.
Things like the back seats, driver comfort and AWD should be enough to keep it alive and well.

I looked strongly at the 2014 Cayman S.
It was no bargian though, as it got real expensive with options, to where the lack of power made it a bad buy.
If it had 400HP, that might have made it work.
In a way I am glad I got the Carrera S, not because its faster, but because the seating position is more comfortable.

2 engines; economy [Base] & performance [S] could easily be shared between the Boxter/Cayman and Carrera.
GTS could get a Powerkit type upgrade.
All would be well and it saves a lot of manufacturing and sevicing costs.

If Carrera went AWD, across the board, it would give a good reason to dial up boost over the Boxter/Cayman engines and keep the Carrera at its higher price point and not have to "play" anyone.

We count on manufacturers to properly evolve their cars and give us the best product possible.

hff

We spotted the Boxster turbo undergoing testing in South Africa on the weekend. Doesnt sound too bad...

Karl_W944

Could you elaborate a bit more?

Sent from my iPhone using Rennlist

hff

Not much to say- saw it cruising around town. LHD with Euro plates on and some telemetry. Unmistakable turbo pop, sounds like a deeper gti. Front looked the same, back had the lights covered.

Grunty

My wife is ok with the boxster s but she felt that the base boxster was way underpowered.
The ladies seem to like the horsepower too. I'm sure she'd prefer 350hp or at least the gts.

lunarx

Right, most sports car drivers want performance.
Maybe just the high-school & college daughters should be HP censored, but not adult women.

Even as a 911 owner, I think the Boxter and Cayman (Base & S) should get the same engine and power, as a Carrera 2/2S.
We should have respect and prestige across the entire brand.

Dude174

I think that happens with most manufacturers who have a tiered car line. The LS engines were always lower hp in camaro/trans am than vette. Look at BMW, m3 held below m5/m6 and word is new m2 will be slotted below m3.

lunarx

True but GM has done a good job of leveling that out with Camaro SS, Z28 & CTS-V.

Also, in the case of BMW, those are all different size cars, with totally different engine packaging requirements.
Its only natural the smaller, M cars can't fit the larger more powerful engine.
But those smaller lower powered M's are lighter and very close in performance and often faster on a track.
I think the M2, will be a great car, but it needs to get some meaner looking body work.

I feel Boxter/Cayman needs more performance to establish themselves in the affordable track car [extreme-performance] segment.
Similar to what the upcoming M2, RS3, Focus RS are going after.
It's time to stop dragging down the Porsche brand.

911 can still be the more upscale alternative, for those wanting more refinement and prestige.

Dude174

The z28 is interesting for sure. The current motor trend tested the z28 vs 991 GT3 and they pointed out the difference in price - but from an angle I personally had never considered, but makes perfect sense. Both cars reflect about $50,000 worth of upgrades vs their respective "base" models. So the "real" cost of the track special upgrade model is the same for both manufacturers, it's just a 911 costs a lot more than v6 camaro.

Grunty

The move to turbos might be a good thing for the boxsters. It might make them feel more zoomy with less hp than a carerra.

Karl_W944

Okay, so I had a thought bubble a minute ago, and it brings about this question:

The current Boxster/Cayman S came with the Carrera's 3.4L H6. Now, every single car is going turbo, could we assume that the base Cayman and Boxster will have the turbo H4, but the S models and up would receive the base Carrera's turbo H6, obviously being de-tuned as always? Or would it just be the turbo 4-pot in different levels of tuning?

Team Plutonium

You can't be serious with this post... but in case you are, no, merging is not a problem with a turbo engine.

lunarx

In a lot of turbo cars, it is a problem.
Not in a $200K 911 TT, but in lesser Turbo cars lag is quite an issue.

It is expected that Porsche wont have that much issue with it but PDK will be a big part of how they minimize lag.