chuck911

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. And if you're talking about the few cars that survive in great condition 30, 40, 50 years or more down the road then yes, absolutely. Especially when these are all being compared to automatic transmissions, which back then were all performance-sucking crap.

But we aren't talking about the past any more. Now we're talking about the future. We aren't talking about 50 year old cars, we're talking in fact about cars that haven't even been built yet. We're no longer talking about manual vs automatic but about cars with a gearbox the driver has to fuss with compared to a gearbox he doesn't. Whole different story.

Sure, granted, a select few of the last manual cars to be made, if the owners don't drive them and keep them in immaculate condition, and if they happen to be desirable at the time (almost never happens with Porsche) they will fetch good prices... 50 years from now. Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.

neanicu

The fact that some prefer PDK is great and I do not see that as a problem. What bothers me are phrases like " give up...it's unavoidable " or " it's gonna happen whether you want it or not ". That's like saying " give up fighting cancer because you're going to die anyway ".
Remember,Porsche CEO said a very interesting thing : can't remember the exact quote but it was something like " we won't remain indifferent if our customers will continue to request a manual transmission ".
Choice is great : regulations or costs are not " the most profitable car company in the World " excuses...

bccars

From my European viewpoint this makes no sense at all. You make it sound like something supernatural :-)

While Everyone over here owns and drives stick, also the grannies and grandpas. And MT and shifting is looked upon as something easy, boring and trivial common place thing.

FullThrottle64

bccars, what you may find really strange is that some of us 'mericans actually look forward to renting cars with a manual when we travel to Europe, because every US rental car has an automatic (and it's generally a really bad one).

Common=boring.
Uncommon=exciting.

Noah Fect

No, it's not.

MerlinsGarage

You bet, but in the future a manual trans will be something different, and if everything is automatic, a 3 pedal car will be an interesting departure from the norm........using another extremity with a certain amount of skill.
For this person the car is not a DD's, his or her enjoyment is the Sunday morning drive on a favorite twisty road, great breakfast and back under the cover safe and sound.
There will always be those people.....................................

Art Caputo

I don't believe that a PDK only version of the 911 is going to make a whole lot of difference. I think it is really the hard core, traditionalist 911 crowd that are most adamant about driving a manual transmission, and the new 991 bears little resemblance to the sharp edged, older 911's anyway. As the air-cooled crowd have already demonstrated, the manual drivers will likely seek an older 911 and be much happier overall. There are plenty out there in perfect condition, and they will endure for very high milage. I wonder if Porsche is savvy enough to recognize this, or perhaps they know exactly what they are doing.

MerlinsGarage

True.................in boring, trivial and common cars.

david

Some of us even like to do this in the middle of the week!

MerlinsGarage

True story:
Last Friday the bride and myself went to dinner at a local watering hole. When we came out it was dark, there were 5 young dudes checking out the yellow 991.
All of them obviously liked the car until one guy looking in the window excalimed "oh man this thing is a friggin' auto!".
"Nope, It's a 7 speed manual", I explained.
All was right after that, and they wanted to hear it...........they did.

I know there aren't many 20-somethings that can afford a new 911, but at least for those guys, manual trans was the only way to roll.
I would be interested to see (USA) demographics on the preference between MT and PDK.

Related: At classic car shows I always pay attention to the number of young folks in attendance, and what peaks their interest.
Sadly there are not may, I don't know who is going to carry on the tradition.
I do however see a much higher number of 16 to 25 year olds at "Cars and Coffee" events, but most of the vehicles there are newer models, and lots of exotics.

Any youngsters out there?..........hello?..........or is this a "mature" forum.
Ask your kids what they prefer..............

neanicu

My dealer sells each and every manual 991s they have on the lot,new or used,within days,while PDKs are sitting...

0Q991

Although it should be noted that dealers order far more PDK cars than manual cars. Ever since Tiptronic, automatics and now PDKs have been outselling manual by a significant margin.

rpilot

These debates never end , do they? Usually a troll starts this and we are the fools who fill it out to hundreds of posts, EVERY single time.

So, I will be a fool and jump into the fray..

The manual, is slowly working it’s way to extinction as some of the others have pointed out. This is especially true in higher performance cars where putting in a manual transmission requires a lot of extra work to fine tune the tractability of the car, because of safety and many other legal reasons besides performance. You would not want a yahoo spinning a torque monster (which admittedly at least in base form, the 991 is not) out of control and suing Porsche, would you? This task is a lot easier when a computer has more control of the car as in an automatically shifting transmission and/or where the manual shifts are processed through a computer before actually making the shift (as in operating the PDK in manual mode). My guess, and it is a guess is that the extra work required for the Turbo/S did not justify the business case. Also dig into the details and see the difference in the fuel consumption (the EPA test negates this) between the manual and PDK and the C02 emissions. CAFE and emission regulations also come into play. So yes, in the future it would not surprise me if manuals, where available in a high performance car would cost extra.

Here in the US, the manual is a novelty and appreciated by sports car fans more than over in Europe. As another poster pointed out, in Europe and much of the rest of the world the manual is a chore for the most part, since 5 spd manual econo-boxes are the standard middle class cars there instead of the automatic Camrys and Accords here, so demand worldwide is limited for the manual on pricier cars. As people trade up, they expect to be doing less chores, not more. On the flip side, the US has the smallest percentage of any car driving population worldwide that can actually drive a manual. Like stated earlier, the largest percentage of manual drivers are in the sports car aficionado group. Now how many 911s does Porsche sell in a year in the US? (Way less than they sell Cayennes, Panameras and in the future, Macan I suppose). And how many of those are turbos? And how many of those buyers actually want a MT? Does it really justify all the extra R&D. I do not think so. If Porsche sold even 1/10th as many turbos as Toyota does Corollas, there might be a business case. At 1/1000th the volume of a mass market car (and 1/5th of demand for a MT within that 1/1000 volume), it makes no sense. To the poster who made a big deal about getting a C4S MT instead of a Turbo S, I don’t blame you, you voted with your wallet as you should, but I am sure Porsche made MORE money selling you the MT C4S than they would have a Turbo S with a MT, the R&D, manufacturing & supply chain costs of which would have to be amortized over a very small pool of buyers.

Also, the age group most into manuals are in the 45-60 old range +/- 10 years tops. Later Gen Xers , Yers and millenials do not have that much nostalgia for a manual as do early Gen Xers and baby boomers. Eventually this group of drivers will pass . Collector cars with MTs fetch more money today, true.. but you are assuming that 50 years from now there will be a big enough group of drivers who want a manual or can drive one for that matter. I do know that while a Model T is cool to look at, I would never want to drive or own one at any price. I may not be right, but what we have now is no guarantee of what will be in the future. So, there goes the future value argument.

Don’t get me wrong. I can certainly appreciate a MT and the tactile feel and the thrill, but if you understand how good the PDK really is and you get in touch with what its doing, you may, just may enjoy the driving experience even more. Besides (and I am sure this is a matter of personal preference and a very contentious point), I do not think Porsche makes the MT with the best shifter / clutch pedal take up feel. That honor belongs to Honda, IMO. I still own a 03 ep3 civic 5 spd , have driven a s2000 and I drove a BMW 535 MT for 7 years and for my tastes, the Honda is light years ahead. I rented a boxster once for a few days in California with a MT (the previous gen) and while it was somewhat better than the BMW box, I did not get the gratification of using it as much as I get driving the 03 ep3. When it came time for me to get the 991, I did not think about it much considering reviews I had read that the 7 spd is fussier than the 6 speed of the 997, and I was tired of the MT in traffic where my car spends most of its time anyway. I just got the PDK and have been very happy with it. You focus on the balance of the car and a lot more things while driving in a spirited manner instead of getting all your thrills from the three pedal dance. PDK, IMO is a superb effort by Porsche to bring the driving experience into the 21st century. It certainly is the best “automatic”, I have ever driven.

So, if you must have the MT, get one while you can and enjoy it. Someday they will be gone and Porsche will care less if you want one of their cars or not, because the minority will not justify the development costs. There is not a business case for them in the future at least in high performance cars.

Hypothetically speaking, would you pay $10K more in today’s money for a MT in the year 2025 for a 911? Not many people would. So, the pool of buyers shrinks even further… Porsche raises the price of the MT to 20K (in today’s money.. which may be 30-35K) in the year 2030? Would you pay that much? Probably not, since even if you could afford it you would be discussing resale value….

Art Caputo

I have seen the exact same thing with my dealer. It appears factory allocations are heavily weighted towards PDK's because AG is pushing it very hard. I do believe that the Euro market is heavily weighted to the PDK. I run an international business and the PDK seems to be unanimously accepted by the people I know. This appears to be a product of the Formual One/Lemans obsession where automatic transmissions are well establishes. As was mentioned in a previous post, there is little intrigue with the mastery of manual shifting since unlike the US, a high percentage of the vehicles were traditionally manual and manual shifting is considered passé. The big question is whether the US market accepts this. Once upon a time in the US Ferrari was unanimously accepted as the ultimate drivers car. It has evolved to be a car of ultimate personal expression, with little connection to its original position even though it's a very high performance vehicle. I wonder if the 911 will end up in the same place here in the US. Hopefully Porsche recognizes the cultural difference. "Driving in its finest form" may mean different things to different markets. IMO.

mi650

snip

Ask your kids what they prefer..............[/QUOTE]


My daughter, 15, hates my car, but she loves the Cayenne I have right now as a loaner. She hates my 928 too.

My son, 18, loves it, but doesn't know how to drive a stick, and doesn't seem to have an interest in learning.