timmhaines

There is an opportunity, build a kit with a electronic clutch pedal and manual/auto shifter and software to make it work like a manual trans if you want it to. Not only will you be as slow as a car with a manual trans, you'll be able to burn clutch plates too, lol
You must give into the technology. many of the fastest cars in the world use auto shift, like F1.
It will only get better over time. Soon there will be transmissions like a twenty speed bike, mix and matching gears to allow more efficiency or speed. I drove the new Panamera Hybrid S they had as a demo and it is really impressive, and I am a 911 guy. The hybrid can be used like a 20 mile range home charged golf cart, or as a power boost with sport mode set, and for a 4 door hybrid it goes like a 911, amazing.
Just my two cents worth.

chuck911

Now that's an interesting point you got there. PDK already has a manual mode where the driver chooses when to shift. This however is not considered "involving" enough for those who love the 7MT. But what if Porsche also included a PDK Involvement Package (icw PDK) consisting of a clutch pedal and 7MT shifter. Then instead of merely flipping a paddle or pressing a button the PDKIP driver would need to operate the clutch and shifter in order to shift. PDKIP shifting would then be exactly like the 7MT! Just as slow, just as much effort, just as ... involving. Even now the 7MT automatically blips throttle to match RPM, so I'm assuming you're joking about the burned clutch. Although with the GT3 Porsche already has a PDKD mode (Donut- pull and release both paddles) and they could incorporate this into PDKIP (though of course with auto engagement to avoid burned clutches and make the PDKIP driver feel as skilled as he already thinks he is) or make it part of Sport Chrono (I can see it now: Option 640 - Sport Chrono Package in combination with option 251 - Porsche Doppelkupplung Involvementstrasse (PDKI) has a different price. The price will be changed from $2,370 to $3,040!). But what a great question! PDKIP would completely replicate the extra clutch pedal and gear shift work, everything 7MT lovers find involving. What a brilliant idea!

Art Caputo

Having owned and driven Porsches over quite a long time from a 356A right through to the contemporary models, my viewpoint is that it has generally taken less talent to drive at 9/10's or more for each new generation. Over the years speed has increased, and driver skill has been replaced with geometry, software, tire technology, AWD, PSM, PDK, RWS..........You may go faster with the new technology, but it might not be as rewarding.

chuck911

Well it probably feels that way. For certain its much easier to drive a 991 faster than a 356. When it comes to driving the car at 9/10 of what each car can do, that comes down to having the exquisite timing needed to brake as late as possible, drive the fastest line as perfectly as possible and accelerate as efficiently as possible. Granted the new cars are much more controllable, but still all these things become much more demanding as speed increases. A 356 at top speed 100 mph travels 146 fps. Braking within 1 ft of the ideal requires timing of 1/146th sec. For a 991, 180 mph, 263 fps, 1/263 sec. The same principle applies to steering inputs. Acceleration, the 356 was so underpowered it was easy to use full throttle, well lets just say a lot more than one can do with 400 hp. So not only timing but control demands more skill in the newer cars.

Bart Baeyens

Yeah, I hear that alot

gt3fantasy

let it die

gt3fantasy

i mean this debate lol

Art Caputo

Perhaps i wasn't clear in my post. Said a dfferent way; Given one already posseses the skill to drive today's technology at the level you describe, you would have to layer in additional skills/knowledge to drive the older technology at or near it's limit. Therefore it takes more skill. That's the point I was trying to make, and would stand by it.

bccars

I'm not sure I can agree with this. Modern machines push performance envelopes, operate on a finer knifes edge. Margin for error will presumably be much smaller ! Older cars have less grip, power, braking ability, making them slower, hence with bigger margin for error !
The art of driving itself hasn't changed much, neither have the laws of physics.

rpilot

//RANT//

I am still befuddled by the PDK detractors ...... (note.. I did not say MT enthusiasts.)

They claim they like the tactile feel (or a million other adjectives) and don't care if PDK is faster / better. I get this part, I am one of those. No objections to this sentiment. Really. I might add a Honda S1500 with a MT to my stable if and when they make it besides my C2 PDK.

Then they claim and cry and b**** and m*** about the lack of Turbo/GT3 without a manual. Here is where they lose me. If you a) dont care about the speed, b) dont care to win races or improve your track times with the GT3, why do you even care if the GT3 or the Turbo do not come with a Manual, since it is pointless in your case to drive it?

Then the turbo drivers counter that they love the torque to propel them like a bullet. Again, why do you need a manual for that? Besides, go drive a Tesla S P85+ and you will forget all about the torque the Turbo 911 gives you. The Tesla silently propels you like the Starship Enterprise at night to the next star. The 911 Turbo sounds like a drama queen in comparison and even 500+ ft/lb is no comparison to the 440 ft/lb in the Tesla at O RPM for the launch thrills and there is no transmission to worry about.

//END RANT//

FullThrottle64

My primary objection to the PDK is the delay. A true racing transmission has no delay between the paddle hit and the shift actuation. I find that delay with the PDK REALLY annoying. I would guess that the source of the delay is the interface between the paddles and the transmission - it's probably using a shared serial bus that isn't capable of imperceptible response speeds. [Caveat - I own/drive a full race car with a sequential dog-ring manual, so my expectations from a clutchless sequential are probably higher than the average driver.]

It also has even more delay in "standard" mode; why should I have to put it in Sport Plus to get acceptable response timing? Is Porsche intentionally trying to make it feel like a Hyundai slushbox when dialed back for use in daily traffic?

My quess is that the PDK is quite capable of being a fantastic transmission, but Porsche has dialed it back for one or more reasons that we can't determine.

rpilot

You make a decent argument, at the very least. I have spent very little time in a C2S . I did test drive it a couple of times and bought a C2 w/ PDK. At the time I drove them back to back around a year ago, the C2 seemed (and this is subjective) to shift faster in both normal and sport modes than the C2S. I have been quite happy with it, and the lag between actuation and the actual shift I feel very slightly in normal mode (in sport, I do not feel it) but it is still much faster than at least I can manipulate the clutch pedal and change gears in a manual

There have been some transmission software updates since, so my guess is that Porsche might be having some trouble in the software department / CPU power to compute everything. A C2 without PASM, PTV or dynamic mounts that I drive has much less computing power requirements than a C2S w/ PASM, PTV and dynamic mounts (Sport chrono). I don't know if the electronic brains have the same processing power or not between the C2 / C2S / C4S but I am willing to bet money that they use the same bus/data bandwidth if the technical terms make any sense to you and all the electronic doodads compete for this bandwidth and / or processing power. (Think of it as your computer running with too many windows open or programs running at the same time. The computer then takes longer to respond to your mouse clicks, doesn't it? )This to me makes the most logical sense. And I willing to bet this will be fixed in 991.2 if Porsche has not optimized it already.

doubleurx

I love this thread. So much passion. I love both. I have 2 older 911s that are manual, and will probably never sell them. I'm looking forward to my new Gt3.

I'm with Suzy, it's just different.....evolution of technology.

Still laughing at all the responses to "because race car"....

bccars

I've said it over and over again, no irritating delay anymore in my car ! I touch the paddle and it shifts instantly, without lag !

doubleurx

100ms is hardly perceptible to even the most advanced human.