PDCC: yes or no?
01-02-2013 | 07:29 PM
#107
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
From: Devon, UK
Since this will be your first Porsche, let me endorse everything ChuckBDC said. And then some. The question of ordering PDCC is entirely one of personal feel. The difference in limit performance is undetectable on public roads or even on a race track with anyone not fully race trained. In fact, I'll go further. Even with race drivers on a track, the difference between a Carrera S with the standard PASM and the same car with PDCC is going to be no greater than the difference in one driver's choice of suspension settings over another.
In other words, it is like most Porsche options: entirely worth the money if you desire and enjoy the result; but entirely satisfactory without the feature. To support my assertion of "it's only about feel" to PDCC enthusiasts, consider that one of the best drivers in the world managed to drive the Nordschleife five seconds faster with PDCC. It was five seconds wasn't it? Roughly anyway. And his total time would have been something like seven thirty, maybe seven twenty, right? (Too lazy to go check exact numbers. Not important.) Call it 440 to 450 seconds. And he saved five seconds out of that total. That's a one percent improvement.
Trust me, very very few of us are good for one percent repeatable performance. I would say that's really what it's about when you're making the jump from messing around in DE track sessions to racing. Consistency.
That five seconds at the Ring is about one second in a typical full race course with very fast cars where lap times will run roughly 1:20 to 1:40. I can change my own lap times -- or yours -- by that much with static adjustments to a conventional suspension. Just changing the feel, the ease of rotation in turn four, the willingness to fly through turn six, or the stability through the dip-slap in turn nine; just changing all that slightly can make a difference of one percent in a normal driver's performance. A normal race-trained driver.
This difference at the Ring was with a driver who may be the best in the world with Porsche suspension set-ups. His repeatability is as good as it gets, but the change to PDCC yielded only one percent. That means PDCC is a good option for performance if you're already getting every last tenth percent from your conventional suspension, if we can even call the Carrera S PASM set up 'conventional'. Unless you're that good, just consider it as you do natural leather. Do you like the feel? And it does change the feel. That's what we're discussing. Some love it, some won't.
Back to the OP's question. Boy, are you going to love the 911 you just ordered. I mean nothing personal when I say that I back off from sport bikes on our canyon roads in Southern California and give them a full turn lead. I don't want to pressure them into getting hurt. You won't get a Carrera, let alone an S, to anything like eight tenths on public roads. Maybe your own 8/10's, but not the car's. Not if you want to avoid jail.
A 'conventional' Carrera 2S with PDK is a scary fast car on our mountain roads. It is laugh-out-loud fun to drive, but you quickly learn self-discipline. Without a closed track and EMT workers nearby, I don't go the speeds this car is willing to reach in a dozen heartbeats. Reach and sustain.
On track, it is just wonderful. A delight to drive at speeds that earlier models struggle to reach. Don't know a better way to describe it.
Gary
In other words, it is like most Porsche options: entirely worth the money if you desire and enjoy the result; but entirely satisfactory without the feature. To support my assertion of "it's only about feel" to PDCC enthusiasts, consider that one of the best drivers in the world managed to drive the Nordschleife five seconds faster with PDCC. It was five seconds wasn't it? Roughly anyway. And his total time would have been something like seven thirty, maybe seven twenty, right? (Too lazy to go check exact numbers. Not important.) Call it 440 to 450 seconds. And he saved five seconds out of that total. That's a one percent improvement.
Trust me, very very few of us are good for one percent repeatable performance. I would say that's really what it's about when you're making the jump from messing around in DE track sessions to racing. Consistency.
That five seconds at the Ring is about one second in a typical full race course with very fast cars where lap times will run roughly 1:20 to 1:40. I can change my own lap times -- or yours -- by that much with static adjustments to a conventional suspension. Just changing the feel, the ease of rotation in turn four, the willingness to fly through turn six, or the stability through the dip-slap in turn nine; just changing all that slightly can make a difference of one percent in a normal driver's performance. A normal race-trained driver.
This difference at the Ring was with a driver who may be the best in the world with Porsche suspension set-ups. His repeatability is as good as it gets, but the change to PDCC yielded only one percent. That means PDCC is a good option for performance if you're already getting every last tenth percent from your conventional suspension, if we can even call the Carrera S PASM set up 'conventional'. Unless you're that good, just consider it as you do natural leather. Do you like the feel? And it does change the feel. That's what we're discussing. Some love it, some won't.
Back to the OP's question. Boy, are you going to love the 911 you just ordered. I mean nothing personal when I say that I back off from sport bikes on our canyon roads in Southern California and give them a full turn lead. I don't want to pressure them into getting hurt. You won't get a Carrera, let alone an S, to anything like eight tenths on public roads. Maybe your own 8/10's, but not the car's. Not if you want to avoid jail.
A 'conventional' Carrera 2S with PDK is a scary fast car on our mountain roads. It is laugh-out-loud fun to drive, but you quickly learn self-discipline. Without a closed track and EMT workers nearby, I don't go the speeds this car is willing to reach in a dozen heartbeats. Reach and sustain.
On track, it is just wonderful. A delight to drive at speeds that earlier models struggle to reach. Don't know a better way to describe it.
Gary
An expert will get the best out of any car and will allow an accurate determination of the true performance advantage gained or lost by PDCC or any other option. A novice will not be able to drive the car anything near the limit but I just wonder if PDCC might favour a novice driver more because it may give a "false" sense of security and inspire more confidence than a non-PDCC car.
An entirely academic point but interested in your thoughts!
01-02-2013 | 07:30 PM
#108
7th Gear
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Since this will be your first Porsche, let me endorse everything ChuckBDC said. And then some. The question of ordering PDCC is entirely one of personal feel. The difference in limit performance is undetectable on public roads or even on a race track with anyone not fully race trained. In fact, I'll go further. Even with race drivers on a track, the difference between a Carrera S with the standard PASM and the same car with PDCC is going to be no greater than the difference in one driver's choice of suspension settings over another.
In other words, it is like most Porsche options: entirely worth the money if you desire and enjoy the result; but entirely satisfactory without the feature. To support my assertion of "it's only about feel" to PDCC enthusiasts, consider that one of the best drivers in the world managed to drive the Nordschleife five seconds faster with PDCC. It was five seconds wasn't it? Roughly anyway. And his total time would have been something like seven thirty, maybe seven twenty, right? (Too lazy to go check exact numbers. Not important.) Call it 440 to 450 seconds. And he saved five seconds out of that total. That's a one percent improvement.
Trust me, very very few of us are good for one percent repeatable performance. I would say that's really what it's about when you're making the jump from messing around in DE track sessions to racing. Consistency.
That five seconds at the Ring is about one second in a typical full race course with very fast cars where lap times will run roughly 1:20 to 1:40. I can change my own lap times -- or yours -- by that much with static adjustments to a conventional suspension. Just changing the feel, the ease of rotation in turn four, the willingness to fly through turn six, or the stability through the dip-slap in turn nine; just changing all that slightly can make a difference of one percent in a normal driver's performance. A normal race-trained driver.
This difference at the Ring was with a driver who may be the best in the world with Porsche suspension set-ups. His repeatability is as good as it gets, but the change to PDCC yielded only one percent. That means PDCC is a good option for performance if you're already getting every last tenth percent from your conventional suspension, if we can even call the Carrera S PASM set up 'conventional'. Unless you're that good, just consider it as you do natural leather. Do you like the feel? And it does change the feel. That's what we're discussing. Some love it, some won't.
Back to the OP's question. Boy, are you going to love the 911 you just ordered. I mean nothing personal when I say that I back off from sport bikes on our canyon roads in Southern California and give them a full turn lead. I don't want to pressure them into getting hurt. You won't get a Carrera, let alone an S, to anything like eight tenths on public roads. Maybe your own 8/10's, but not the car's. Not if you want to avoid jail.
A 'conventional' Carrera 2S with PDK is a scary fast car on our mountain roads. It is laugh-out-loud fun to drive, but you quickly learn self-discipline. Without a closed track and EMT workers nearby, I don't go the speeds this car is willing to reach in a dozen heartbeats. Reach and sustain.
On track, it is just wonderful. A delight to drive at speeds that earlier models struggle to reach. Don't know a better way to describe it.
Gary
In other words, it is like most Porsche options: entirely worth the money if you desire and enjoy the result; but entirely satisfactory without the feature. To support my assertion of "it's only about feel" to PDCC enthusiasts, consider that one of the best drivers in the world managed to drive the Nordschleife five seconds faster with PDCC. It was five seconds wasn't it? Roughly anyway. And his total time would have been something like seven thirty, maybe seven twenty, right? (Too lazy to go check exact numbers. Not important.) Call it 440 to 450 seconds. And he saved five seconds out of that total. That's a one percent improvement.
Trust me, very very few of us are good for one percent repeatable performance. I would say that's really what it's about when you're making the jump from messing around in DE track sessions to racing. Consistency.
That five seconds at the Ring is about one second in a typical full race course with very fast cars where lap times will run roughly 1:20 to 1:40. I can change my own lap times -- or yours -- by that much with static adjustments to a conventional suspension. Just changing the feel, the ease of rotation in turn four, the willingness to fly through turn six, or the stability through the dip-slap in turn nine; just changing all that slightly can make a difference of one percent in a normal driver's performance. A normal race-trained driver.
This difference at the Ring was with a driver who may be the best in the world with Porsche suspension set-ups. His repeatability is as good as it gets, but the change to PDCC yielded only one percent. That means PDCC is a good option for performance if you're already getting every last tenth percent from your conventional suspension, if we can even call the Carrera S PASM set up 'conventional'. Unless you're that good, just consider it as you do natural leather. Do you like the feel? And it does change the feel. That's what we're discussing. Some love it, some won't.
Back to the OP's question. Boy, are you going to love the 911 you just ordered. I mean nothing personal when I say that I back off from sport bikes on our canyon roads in Southern California and give them a full turn lead. I don't want to pressure them into getting hurt. You won't get a Carrera, let alone an S, to anything like eight tenths on public roads. Maybe your own 8/10's, but not the car's. Not if you want to avoid jail.
A 'conventional' Carrera 2S with PDK is a scary fast car on our mountain roads. It is laugh-out-loud fun to drive, but you quickly learn self-discipline. Without a closed track and EMT workers nearby, I don't go the speeds this car is willing to reach in a dozen heartbeats. Reach and sustain.
On track, it is just wonderful. A delight to drive at speeds that earlier models struggle to reach. Don't know a better way to describe it.
Gary
01-02-2013 | 08:25 PM
#109
Rennlist Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,429
Likes: 15
From: Southern California
Gary, thank you for this entirely logical argument. I follow it but have been thinking about it. Do you think it is possible that PDCC might actually be more advantageous to a novice "desensitised" track driver as opposed to an expert?
An expert will get the best out of any car and will allow an accurate determination of the true performance advantage gained or lost by PDCC or any other option. A novice will not be able to drive the car anything near the limit but I just wonder if PDCC might favour a novice driver more because it may give a "false" sense of security and inspire more confidence than a non-PDCC car.
An entirely academic point but interested in your thoughts!
An expert will get the best out of any car and will allow an accurate determination of the true performance advantage gained or lost by PDCC or any other option. A novice will not be able to drive the car anything near the limit but I just wonder if PDCC might favour a novice driver more because it may give a "false" sense of security and inspire more confidence than a non-PDCC car.
An entirely academic point but interested in your thoughts!
Good point, SiNi.
Gary
01-07-2013 | 04:55 PM
#110
Track Day
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
"Judging by other posters whose SPASM "chins" have fallen off on driveway dips, it sounds like I made the right decision."
I have SPASM as well as the Sport Design Front Facia on my 991 S and have had no problem so far with scaping. My previous 997 S seemed to scrape quite a bit, especially leaving the entrance to our street which has a significant dip then rise. I had to drive out on an angle to avoid it. The 997 did not have SPASM.
While the Sport Design Front Facia on its own is lower to the ground than the standard facia, it doesn't seem to have the same black plastic lip sort thing under the facia as the 997 had. Maybe that it the difference.
These two options came with the car, which I purchased off the lot, and I was concerned about scaping but have been pleascently surprised.
I have SPASM as well as the Sport Design Front Facia on my 991 S and have had no problem so far with scaping. My previous 997 S seemed to scrape quite a bit, especially leaving the entrance to our street which has a significant dip then rise. I had to drive out on an angle to avoid it. The 997 did not have SPASM.
While the Sport Design Front Facia on its own is lower to the ground than the standard facia, it doesn't seem to have the same black plastic lip sort thing under the facia as the 997 had. Maybe that it the difference.
These two options came with the car, which I purchased off the lot, and I was concerned about scaping but have been pleascently surprised.
01-08-2013 | 06:09 AM
#111
Race Car
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,486
Likes: 441
From: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
Guys
it s not about novice or expert , feeling or not feeling,
it s all about physic! if you put (non pdcc) most of the weight on the external wheels (front and rear) during a turn
or you have a more balanced weight during the turn on both external internal wheels (pdcc)
where do you think more weight will go when you have to correct with brakes or speed
or steering
when loosing grip? who do you think will have more margin when in trouble?
i am with pdcc not with leather interiror when in trouble and got one with it ! :-)
it s not about novice or expert , feeling or not feeling,
it s all about physic! if you put (non pdcc) most of the weight on the external wheels (front and rear) during a turn
or you have a more balanced weight during the turn on both external internal wheels (pdcc)
where do you think more weight will go when you have to correct with brakes or speed
or steering
when loosing grip? who do you think will have more margin when in trouble?
i am with pdcc not with leather interiror when in trouble and got one with it ! :-)
01-08-2013 | 07:45 AM
#112
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 209
Likes: 65
I just took delivery on a second 991, this time I spec'd it with PDCC and my $0.02 is that it gives the car that "on rails" road-feel, and I suspect I'll enjoy that whether I'm on the track or on a back-country road. I know this is an expensive option but I'd recommend it to everyone, whether or not you track the car.
01-08-2013 | 09:09 AM
#113
Race Car
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,596
Likes: 323
From: Maryland USA
What about KW's new iSuspension for the 991, with iPhone controls, lol.
http://m.carbuzz.com/Article.aspx?Id=12300
http://m.carbuzz.com/Article.aspx?Id=12300
01-08-2013 | 10:05 AM
#114
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
From: Far Away Land
Excellence magazine editor concluded that he would get one without PDCC, Chris Harris also tweeted that he would have his without, and road and track editor that tested 911s with PDCC said the same thing.
PDCC makes the car a little quicker, no doubt, but sacrifices some feel, and adds weight (PDCC cars need hydrolic pump, plumbing, etc) to the car.
No PDCC for me, thank you!
PDCC makes the car a little quicker, no doubt, but sacrifices some feel, and adds weight (PDCC cars need hydrolic pump, plumbing, etc) to the car.
No PDCC for me, thank you!
01-08-2013 | 10:50 AM
#115
Race Car
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,486
Likes: 441
From: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
I have to admit that when i am not driving my SUV but my 991 i loose a lot of that "magical" feeling :-)
it s an habit not a feeling , car editors never publisheed a back to back test
it s an habit not a feeling , car editors never publisheed a back to back test
01-08-2013 | 10:51 AM
#116
Race Car
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,486
Likes: 441
From: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
I have to admit that when i am not driving my SUV but my 991 i loose a lot of that "magical" feeling :-)
it s an habit not a feeling , car editors never publisheed a back to back test
it s an habit not a feeling , car editors never publisheed a back to back test
01-08-2013 | 11:14 AM
#117
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,458
Likes: 230
From: SF Bay Area
This continues to astonish me. I have not seen a back to back test either.
Seems the mags have mostly been 'we drove the one with (or without) a few months ago, maybe one had PASM and the other SPASM', and yet we are comparing based on memory of 'feel', without any other metric. I, for one, would enjoy reading a proper, simultaneously carried out comparison.
What's the wager on the GT3 having it? Hoping we get to find out in Geneva. With all the spyshots, one would think there would have been a camera stuck inside a wheelhouse to see. But then again, I wonder how many of the "spy" shots are not just authorized, calculated leaks, which would of course show exactly what they would want them to show, or not show.
Seems the mags have mostly been 'we drove the one with (or without) a few months ago, maybe one had PASM and the other SPASM', and yet we are comparing based on memory of 'feel', without any other metric. I, for one, would enjoy reading a proper, simultaneously carried out comparison.
What's the wager on the GT3 having it? Hoping we get to find out in Geneva. With all the spyshots, one would think there would have been a camera stuck inside a wheelhouse to see. But then again, I wonder how many of the "spy" shots are not just authorized, calculated leaks, which would of course show exactly what they would want them to show, or not show.
01-08-2013 | 11:54 AM
#118
Race Car
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,596
Likes: 323
From: Maryland USA
This continues to astonish me. I have not seen a back to back test either.
Seems the mags have mostly been 'we drove the one with (or without) a few months ago, maybe one had PASM and the other SPASM', and yet we are comparing based on memory of 'feel', without any other metric. I, for one, would enjoy reading a proper, simultaneously carried out comparison.
What's the wager on the GT3 having it? Hoping we get to find out in Geneva. With all the spyshots, one would think there would have been a camera stuck inside a wheelhouse to see. But then again, I wonder how many of the "spy" shots are not just authorized, calculated leaks, which would of course show exactly what they would want them to show, or not show.
Seems the mags have mostly been 'we drove the one with (or without) a few months ago, maybe one had PASM and the other SPASM', and yet we are comparing based on memory of 'feel', without any other metric. I, for one, would enjoy reading a proper, simultaneously carried out comparison.
What's the wager on the GT3 having it? Hoping we get to find out in Geneva. With all the spyshots, one would think there would have been a camera stuck inside a wheelhouse to see. But then again, I wonder how many of the "spy" shots are not just authorized, calculated leaks, which would of course show exactly what they would want them to show, or not show.
The GT3? It will be a ~$3k option for those who want to drive prior generation GT3 owners totally nuts.
01-08-2013 | 04:45 PM
#119
Rennlist Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,429
Likes: 15
From: Southern California
Guys
it s not about novice or expert , feeling or not feeling, it s all about physic! if you put (non pdcc) most of the weight on the external wheels (front and rear) during a turn or you have a more balanced weight during the turn on both external internal wheels (pdcc)
where do you think more weight will go when you have to correct with brakes or speed or steering when loosing grip? who do you think will have more margin when in trouble?
i am with pdcc not with leather interiror when in trouble and got one with it ! :-)
it s not about novice or expert , feeling or not feeling, it s all about physic! if you put (non pdcc) most of the weight on the external wheels (front and rear) during a turn or you have a more balanced weight during the turn on both external internal wheels (pdcc)
where do you think more weight will go when you have to correct with brakes or speed or steering when loosing grip? who do you think will have more margin when in trouble?
i am with pdcc not with leather interiror when in trouble and got one with it ! :-)
Reducing roll while cornering changes the amount of weight transferred by only a small amount. Maybe twenty pounds at the most in front, and forty in back. Unless you're an obsessive compulsive with spare sandbags in your garage, the car is imbalanced by many times that much every time you start it up.
Load transfer in cornering and lateral acceleration is a function of the height of the center of gravity above the ground. In formula cars, it is very low; in Porsches about the height of the driver's hipbone I'd guess; and in motorhomes slightly above floor level. That height of cg is what determines the important load transfers under cornering and lateral acceleration, and the cg isn't changed between PDCC and standard suspension. (Actually, it may change some trivial amount because of different fittings, but that isn't the point of the change and it won't be enough to matter.)
Enjoy your PDCC for the feel it produces. You won't be able to detect a performance advantage except the one that arises from your increased confidence in the car. (Thanks to SiNi for pointing out that significant benefit in practical use of the car.)
Gary
01-08-2013 | 05:35 PM
#120
Race Car
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,486
Likes: 441
From: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
you said it,the suspensions work better on bad roads because at any load change (road imperfections) there s a counter force (by pdcc) that push in the opposite (up) way the weight imbalance,
so rather than having the loosing grip on 1 or 2 wheels when happening (even at faster speed due the gain of overall grip) the loosing is more "smooth" , to be exact the amount of body left right roll prevente by the pdcc
in this way (leting the suspensions work perfectly and not compressed) is 3 CM(1.2 inch) , 1.2 inch more >1ton car wow it s impressive!
what i wonder how many hp /fuel /emission (they switched to the less "natural" electric steering for fuel saving)
this takes but no doubt on benefits