2fcknfst

Pdtp#16

Not necessarily. For sure, all of these companies will always lean towards selling more products (that's there business), but you also need to keep in mind that Champion is a sister company to one of the largest Porsche dealers in FL. So they are pretty conservative when selling their product and ensuring that the quality and reliability still there. So while additionally intercoolers might not make a huge impact on reliability right away it does when you start pushing the engine pretty hard such as with a stage 2 or 3 tune. You will be amazed how much each component can affect a tune. This happened to me when one of the engineers suggested taking the cats outs with the thought that it would reduce EGT's and therefore reduce engine and IAT's. We did this without going back and modifying our tune. Well it made matters way worse. Turbos spooled too fast thus overheating much sooner, etc.

've been working on modeling HP variances over last year data and its been quite surprising seeing the efficiently losses as we hade changes, tunes, day temps, humidity etc. From peak to lowest there is almost 120hp delta. So this is where someone like Sam, TPC and other tuners around using cobb as a tool can ensure your tune is working well with the products you installed in your car as well as making sure the tune is setup for your needs.

I have never used a stock COBB tune so i can't really speak if they are good or bad, but i can see how they can potentially be off with different equipment etc and not a pro tuner. GIACC is really good off the shelf product, but has no customization and it was created and tuned with specific equipment (tubi exhaust, champion inters, etc). So it will probably work best with those products. Just my two cents.

2fcknfst

I would think that the factory ECU has enough smarts to compensate for new ICs without having to be reprogrammed. You don't reprogram driving from sea level to altitude, you don't go from summer to a winter tune - the car just runs better in the cool dense air. Up north here, there are different blends of fuel from summer to winter so the fuel doesn't freeze - I haven't noticed any difference in operation and the car runs year round, nor has MCL suggested a re-tune because of that change.

I have noticed no difference in the 996 changing the ICs, and have not yet reprogrammed.

But hey, I've been wrong before...

I can see the value of re tuning for cats, no cats, turbos, exhaust, injectors (in some cases), but an IC seems like a stretch, unless of course flow was jumping up exponentially over the stock, already efficient, IC.

Pdtp#16

for sure. It’s not as critical as you properly articulate. But ultimately it’s probably part of their business model. They sell you three different packages each including a specific tune. This provides them with the comfort that everything will work well and balanced thus ensuring quality control, less complaints etc. and off course selling you additional parts.

2fcknfst

Mmmmmmmm, captlitalism....

Pdtp#16

onfireTTS

IMHO, from my logs before/after custom tuning, you are correct. I’m using a spray system on my IC’s so I can log before/after IAT’s. The DME does adapt.

The only advantage to another tune after you install more efficient IC’s is to add timing for more power since the better IC’s will drop the IAT and allow for more timing.

I’m still amazed how much pumping loss there is in this flat 6 that is offset by more timing to create more power. Have never seen that before at this magnitude in other platforms.

2fcknfst

What kind of percentage in pumping losses?

So, just thinking about this a little more, I could see pushing a little more timing on the track, with good airflow, but for a daily, is there really that much of an advantage?

onfireTTS

I've never calculated the total percentage, but here is a rough order of magnitude :

An alcohol car I have tuned runs 3.8 at 201 mph in the 1/8th mile. TT BBF. 1 to 2 degrees of timing over a baseline load is all it will take with small modest HP gains...and we want every single HP you can get since it is heads up racing. More is nothing but broken parts.

My other street car runs a TT LSX combo and runs 8.6 at 174mph on low boost on baseline timing 18 degrees. If I add 1-2 degrees it will slightly pick up. More is nothing. Add boost and we actually reduce timing and run 184mph in the 1/4 mile on DOT tires.

Now Porsche....max timing up top for pump 93, etc in the 18-21 range until it starts retarding due to octane . BUT add METH or 109 and you can crank the timing and crank the hp up.....have never seen that much power gain before with just timing due to internal pumping loss being overcome. Amazing.

Big Swole

I wish I understood the tuning thing better. Thank goodness for the folks that can really do it well.

Mtndog

Looks awesome!

Mtndog

Looks awesome!

Pb Pedis

This is the message that Champion gave me as well. The intercooler upgrade allows for a more aggressive tune (more timing) compared to the tune with all OEM components, all while staying very conservative relative to other tunes on the market. The cost for the update is only a few hundred bucks anyway...not much of a cash grab.

2fcknfst

Onfire is a machine and has a better fundamental grasp of tuning than I do, and spends a considerable amount of time doing fast; my knowledge is limited to the basics and what I have been able to teach myself over the years, or by what it has cost me in catastrophic failures, so as to not repeat history....

Then there are folks like Jean... who I suspect is a Porsche Sleeper Agent (I think I may have mentioned this before...) who seems to have a unnatural knowledge of ALL things Porsche and can lay his hands on documents I could only dream of finding.

Then, there is Sam. Sam is the guy who I may have become if I didn't have to work for a living, and/or, if the westcoast of Canada could have really supported the aftermarket like back east, or in the states.

I think a great deal of the knowledge base you find here is born from guys who have access to tracks, and use them on an ongoing and regular basis, or fellows with engineering backgrounds that have used there knowledge for the greater good of consumers, like you and me. I am constantly interested in learning anything I can about any of my vehicles, but I also realize, like you, there are much greater skilled fellows here than me - but it shouldn't stop any of us from listening, and subsequently learning from their experience.

2fcknfst

Happy Thanksgiving American friends!

Now, go drive your turbos!