Porsche Cracking Down on Flippers?
05-27-2017, 10:28 AM
#91
Supply constraints creating artificial demand and "collectability" is the core of the problem.
The limited edition 911R is the poster child. Porsche adversted the crap out of a car that I and other loyal customers had zero chance of getting. I was honestly insulted enough to bail on the brand, and I did until the 991 GT3 came along. However if I'd been lucky enough to get an allocation I couldn't have afforded to drive it properly anyway: my income tax bracket lets me enjoy a 150k car, but not ignore a potential 200k+ windfall.
Artificial scarcity promotes a Ferrari-like culture of bubbles and buffing, where the expectation of depreciation creates the exact opposite- a "use it or lose it" attitude. And the difference comes down to perception- even some of Porsche's best cars, i.e. the Boxster Spyder, are not going up because they're not "limited supply" even when built in small numbers.
I'd seriously consider cutting out numbered editions if I were Porsche, and I'd increase production flexibility to add more cars to a high demand model's run when needed. Care should be taken to avoid precipitous depreciation, but likewise significant appreciation is just as damaging in the long run. Porsche will have lost the core of its identity the moment it ceases making cars real drivers can truely use, and to use a car it must be both accessible and financially sane to do so.
The limited edition 911R is the poster child. Porsche adversted the crap out of a car that I and other loyal customers had zero chance of getting. I was honestly insulted enough to bail on the brand, and I did until the 991 GT3 came along. However if I'd been lucky enough to get an allocation I couldn't have afforded to drive it properly anyway: my income tax bracket lets me enjoy a 150k car, but not ignore a potential 200k+ windfall.
Artificial scarcity promotes a Ferrari-like culture of bubbles and buffing, where the expectation of depreciation creates the exact opposite- a "use it or lose it" attitude. And the difference comes down to perception- even some of Porsche's best cars, i.e. the Boxster Spyder, are not going up because they're not "limited supply" even when built in small numbers.
I'd seriously consider cutting out numbered editions if I were Porsche, and I'd increase production flexibility to add more cars to a high demand model's run when needed. Care should be taken to avoid precipitous depreciation, but likewise significant appreciation is just as damaging in the long run. Porsche will have lost the core of its identity the moment it ceases making cars real drivers can truely use, and to use a car it must be both accessible and financially sane to do so.
Last edited by Petevb; 05-27-2017 at 02:33 PM.
05-27-2017, 10:51 AM
#92
Nordschleife Master
Chime in if you would sell your R at list if you bought it at list and now decided to sell today. Any takers? All takers please pm me immediately.
05-27-2017, 11:04 AM
#93
Race Director
Guys, look he the Macan, Cayenne, Panamera, 991 Carrera, and Cayman/Boxster markets.
Do ANY have ADM's?? Any pre-owned trading above or even near MSRP??
One reason, they make enough!
That's the ONLY solution. Make MORE cars. If that were to happen, you'd have threads complaining that they're making too many GT cars. Can't make everyone happy.
You have to admit, there is a decent sized segment of those interested in the GT cars because of the current resale values. If they depreciated like 20% the first year, you'd have much more informative and interesting threads here. They wouldn't all consist of allocations, values, flippers, and stealers.
Do ANY have ADM's?? Any pre-owned trading above or even near MSRP??
One reason, they make enough!
That's the ONLY solution. Make MORE cars. If that were to happen, you'd have threads complaining that they're making too many GT cars. Can't make everyone happy.
You have to admit, there is a decent sized segment of those interested in the GT cars because of the current resale values. If they depreciated like 20% the first year, you'd have much more informative and interesting threads here. They wouldn't all consist of allocations, values, flippers, and stealers.
05-27-2017, 11:05 AM
#94
Nordschleife Master
Moderators,I know there's an " Ignore " feature for annoying members,but you need to add an " Ignore " feature for threads,so that they don't constantly pop up at the top of one's page.
05-27-2017, 11:07 AM
#95
Race Director
Guys, look he the Macan, Cayenne, Panamera, 991 Carrera, and Cayman/Boxster markets.
Do ANY have ADM's?? Any pre-owned trading above or even near MSRP??
One reason, they make enough!
That's the ONLY solution. Make MORE cars. If that were to happen, you'd have threads complaining that they're making too many GT cars. Can't make everyone happy.
Do ANY have ADM's?? Any pre-owned trading above or even near MSRP??
One reason, they make enough!
That's the ONLY solution. Make MORE cars. If that were to happen, you'd have threads complaining that they're making too many GT cars. Can't make everyone happy.
One day i will like to be able to go to their website, enter my custom specs, and then get an estimated delivery date. Sort of like the blinds i ordered last night.
05-27-2017, 11:12 AM
#96
Race Director
Originally Posted by robmypro
I hear you, but look at the Hellcat market. Those cars were impossible to get early on, and now it seems like every Dodge dealership has 3.
One day i will like to be able to go to their website, enter my custom specs, and then get an estimated delivery date. Sort of like the blinds i ordered last night.
One day i will like to be able to go to their website, enter my custom specs, and then get an estimated delivery date. Sort of like the blinds i ordered last night.
Good example.
That's the other aspect to this. Who cares how limited something is, if the DEMAND isn't there it won't trade at a premium. In this case, the demand for GT cars is much greater than the supply. It's also skewed by an artificial secondary market the dealers create. All these pre-owned cars sitting for sale because many were initially flipped for generous premiums and sellers have a lot of $$ into them. Someone has to lose $$ sooner or later. Porsche dealers are having a big influence in the secondary market here.
05-27-2017, 11:17 AM
#97
Race Director
All these subjects have been beat to death here. Nothing new. Porsche is just trying to make it seem like they're aware of the issue and will "try" and monitor it. All talk.
They use the GT cars as incentives and bonus's for dealers. Why would they give that up?? One HUGE ace card in their hand. Can ANYONE dispute this?
They care more about their business interests than pleasing any enthusiast or loyal customers. They want to move their bread and butter models thy make the real $$$ on. The GT cars are just halo cars at this point and make for good marketing to sell all the other stuff.
They use the GT cars as incentives and bonus's for dealers. Why would they give that up?? One HUGE ace card in their hand. Can ANYONE dispute this?
They care more about their business interests than pleasing any enthusiast or loyal customers. They want to move their bread and butter models thy make the real $$$ on. The GT cars are just halo cars at this point and make for good marketing to sell all the other stuff.
05-27-2017, 11:27 AM
#98
Rennlist Member
So all this dealer bashing. Not that I'm a fan of dealers but who here who bought their GT 911 for msrp would not resell it at the time you decided to sell at market if market was over msrp?
What at fair is fair. If you would sell over msrp, and I bet every one of you would to a man don't bitch when others do.
What at fair is fair. If you would sell over msrp, and I bet every one of you would to a man don't bitch when others do.
05-27-2017, 11:34 AM
#99
Spec your own car is one of fun part about buying a Porsche. Hated when a dealer take that away from a customer.
05-27-2017, 11:37 AM
#100
Race Director
Dealers perspective >>> why sell a car to a guy at MSRP and have him flip it a few months after for a nice profit?
Why not make that extra $$$ ourselves??
I don't blame them.
The problem is Porsche and its limited supply. Dealers are just the middle men who sometimes get a bad rap.
Why not make that extra $$$ ourselves??
I don't blame them.
The problem is Porsche and its limited supply. Dealers are just the middle men who sometimes get a bad rap.
05-27-2017, 11:48 AM
#103
Rennlist Member
As I posted earlier the dealer is the key to controlling flipping. To by past the dealer as Ford did with the GT resolves nothing. Ford now has many disgruntled customers and since Ford only builds a GT type car every 10 years or so flipping is the least of their worries.
I have played the game for the last 20 years first with Ferrari and now with Porsche. I get early allocations because I work with one dealership. I use the car and give it back to them at a fair price with the knowledge the dealer is going to make money often lots of it. They know I am not in it for the money but for accessibility. When new models come out I want to be high on their list should I want one.
I don't keep cars. I drive them and when something better is introduced I turn the car in and order the new model.
I have played the game for the last 20 years first with Ferrari and now with Porsche. I get early allocations because I work with one dealership. I use the car and give it back to them at a fair price with the knowledge the dealer is going to make money often lots of it. They know I am not in it for the money but for accessibility. When new models come out I want to be high on their list should I want one.
I don't keep cars. I drive them and when something better is introduced I turn the car in and order the new model.
05-27-2017, 12:02 PM
#105
The questions are; what caused this, and more importantly, how can this situation be corrected?
Imagine if GT cars had a depreciation curve like an AMG, MAC, BMW. How many people here would not have purchased a GT car? How many here would not be able to trade in their 3 year old GT car for the price they paid for it and be guaranteed top spot in the next GT car? How many people here would be flipping their car?
This is NOT a supply or demand issue.
This is NOT a dealer issue.
This is NOT a flipper issue.
A complete change in the GT market / buyer philosophy would change it. Make GT cars depreciate as they are SUPPOSED to and every single issue relating to supply/demand/ADM/stealerships/flipping will be rectified.