Macca

Grant. Everything you say has some truth (you did not mention the GT4 weight and chassis benefits tho).

The stats can point any where you want but the fact remains, if you have driven both GT4 and GT3 ***** to the wall at your local track then the GT3 is quicker but typically no more than 1s a lap. I've experienced this first hand many times. Manifold, Mooty and OrthoJoe can no doubt collaborate. The GT4 punches above its weight. It's also the easier car to pilot at 9+ tenths too in my opinion. The GT3 is still a 911 even with the tech...

Now take the 991.1 GT3 and add a 6 speed MT and lower redline. Will it be 1s a lap quicker than GT4 still? No way, the upshifts times will rob at least 0.6s on a 4km track.

Now add back in 4.0l engine with additional 14lbft and 24bhp and subtract 30kg and change electronic diff for mechanical...do you win back 0.6s. In real world even with 911R ratios I do not believe so.

I can win 19lbft and 35 bhp with DMS race headers on PDK 991.1 GT3. Will I be slower now than MT 991.3 GT3 with above configuration? My guess is No.

So if my reason to sell 1.1 GT3 to move to 1.2 GT3 is the "involvement" of rowing my own gears in the track I see the vale proposition diminishes greatly. I can justify the 50k difference between 991.1 GT3 and GT4 in basic of the more exotic engine, the PDK-S specific transmission, all the tech and the 1s per minute track advantage but for 70k difference the MT 1.2 GT3 has even harder questions to ask of itself?

GrantG

Hi Macca! I don't have the time right now to give a lengthy reply deserved by your insightful posts, but just wanted to say a couple brief things. With only 6 wider ratios, the redline is going to appear much less rapidly than what you experience in your GT3, so shifting close to redline will be less challenging than you fear. Also, don't discount improvements to the car that will make the 991.2 GT3 quicker than just the addition of a little power/torque and small weight loss would imply. I think the suspension improvements will be significant and the obligatory RWS tuning and new generation of tires. The pace of development is rapid right now - we'll see some very quick laptimes from the new GT3 (yes, a little faster with pdk, but I think manual will be surprisingly fast too).

997s07

I think the 9000 redline is not the problem with MT. It is the quick rev drops that can be tuned by Porsche to be manageable with the MT. It is not the speed of the shifts per se but staying in the correct RPM at speed. Make the MT gears a little taller than the current GT3 relatively shorter gears and I will bet there won't be even 1s difference for the same driver on the same track.

Having driven the 991 GT3 extensively at the Hockenheim ring I can be sure that the current gearing of the GT3 is primarily responsible for those great lap times. Shift speeds at this level are not huge contributors, nonetheless there is an, in my opinion, insignificant advantage that a MT driver can overcome.

JonA85

fxz

^looks like he had a chat with the Cleaning lady but we were first one year ago and we discussed already that

PAG had that plan 4 sure

Brosef

^ I vehemently disagree with his logic. Porsche is not in the business of protecting the resale values of cars they have previously sold at the expense of limiting the development of new cars.

This notion that a manual GT3 is going to "screw over" the customers that just bought the R is foolish. the R's were privately allocated to well-heeled 918 buyers, and they weren't purchased with an implicit contract that Porsche wouldn't build a manual GT3 in the future. nobody feels sorry for this constituency. the R's will still be worth more than what they were bought for even if a manual NA GT3 with the 4.0 engine comes out, because they will still be exclusive and special (and they have some other unique weight savings technologies that will give the R owners something to drone on about at cars and coffee).

signes

I don't think we will get a turbo engine - feels like by now one of the spy photogs would have mentioned a significantly different sound signature, nor does there appear to be a material change to the bodywork to allow for more cooling for turbos.

neanicu

The GT4 is a sweet car. For those that jumped straight into the GT experience by buying pdk,do yourself a favor a drive a 997 GT car or a GT4 with a manual. You'll never go back to pdk!

neanicu

I'm sorry if I'm the only one saying this and I've tried to stay away from discussions regarding the above guy's videos : but he's a total clown IMO.

fxz

That guy is wrong about resale values that PAG don t care at all
but is not so wrong when he says
991 baseline is all turbo
R and RS still in production maybe hurted

proof is AP released a public interview (not dnner rumors...)
at Geneva 2016 autoshow

stating clearly that the future may not see GT3 (as we know it today..) but only R and RS
(why ? just think about it, the R is a GT3 plus some carbon sold for 200k MSRP...so more margin
and the 991 baseline need a sporty boost by a Turbo GT2/3 to ramp up sales)
only point to understand is when in the future
firstly they planned 991.2 but realized they were going to mess all new and "old" customers?

mcsmcs1

No way- that "GT3" slapped on the car is automotive gold.

levd

Exactly. Porsche is in the business of selling as much of new cars as possible. Sales and profits, nothing else. Simple. Why would they care about 997 4.0 resale values? It's ridiculous. They are not in 997 4.0 resale business.

Same with current RS and R. Porsche is not in the business of selling them any more. All present generation RS's and all R's are SOLD. Turn the page.

RealityGT

^+1!

C.J. Ichiban

Guys can we please just stop referring to the GT3 as potentially having turbos? That's the GT2. They ARE making a GT2.

Okay next- Grant and Macca, finally some insightful commentary on track performance! This should be it's own thread- please allow me to opine slightly...

If the value proposition ever gets introduced to the equation- the GT4 wins automatically. The car is 50-150k cheaper than what it is being compared to- and is just as capable of being modified with proper tires, suspension or other various track dedication mods. By following this path, most certainly the car will be faster and cheaper.

Stock to stock- the newest cars always march on with incremental gains- you mentioned RWS software updates which would make sense. Also, there is so much room to improve on aero for the standard GT3 or even the RS.

As long as they keep the GT4 super analog with MT and no RWS I will be happy to drive one.

Every generation RS is special- I have one or more of all of the recent ones. I'm trying to grow that posse.

Weight is a big factor on acceleration, braking, and real cornering speeds. But- so is footprint and the GT3 and RS have a ton more contact patch and a wider window mechanical grip than the GT4.

This is why the cars are so close- different performance factors will favor one vs the other.

On a tight, flat circuit with increasing radius exits and sub 135MPH top speed- the cayman will punch far above it's weight. Club tracks will prefer the flicky nature of the GT4.

On an F1 level track with longer straights, chicanes and elevation changes, the gap will widen because the HP and grip type will favor the GT3 or RS. The grunt on a 991 (current or future) GT3 is almost 100HP higher and that really helps at a track like Road Atlanta, COTA, Spa, etc.


My solution of course is just to take whatever your friends are taking- or else I get the ACR effect and just have something nobody can run down and that's less fun.

Zulu Alpha

Exactly, agreed. The R is there to be catered to those who "can't wait to get one" the ones that stand in line outside the Apple Store for days because they want the exclusive. Later to find the product dropped in price and available in abundance. That's called Market skimming in marketing speak. Nothing new. Don't see why Porsche wouldn't offer a manual in their next 991.2 NA GT3 even if it's a 4.0