GrantG

Interesting. What are the prices, out of curiosity?

997s07

Really looking forward to this car. Manual 991 GT car. Hope there's some significant weight savings. Of course, it will be a difficult car to get, but it will be worth the hassle.

Would love the option to delete RWS...

GrantG

I wouldn't expect anywhere to save weight other than Manual weighing about 60 pounds less than PDK. (hard to feel that near the center of gravity of a 3,200 pound car)

sccchiii

I have not looked them up as a replacement but it does not necessarily surprise me as you will find other quirky discrepancies in Porsche parts pricing, not common but every once in awhile you'll find strange replacement parts pricing. On the manufacturing side this is not the case so I've been told by my friends in the MS division and the crank is far more expensive (and SLOWER) to manufacture.

Drifting

We've heard the 991 RS crankshaft is more expensive, but how much is far more expensive for one part of an engine that's part of a car with lots of expensive bits like the magnesium roof?
$500?, $1500?, $5,000?

I can't imagine that one part excludes the possibility of a 4.0 GT3, particularly since Porsche already made a .2 liter displacement change between the 997 generations, and that the .2 GT3 will likely have a reasonable bump in base MSRP to 145-150K.

sccchiii

I don't think the cost of crank itself will exclude it but it's the sum of many things combined then you've moved your "to market price" (because of target profit margins for Porsche when wholesaling them to dealers) too high based on target. $500 more a crankshaft (throwing guess) is a game changer in car building world.

Drifting

I'm not sure it's a game changer in the 6 figure car building world.

Porsche doesn't have to do that much R&D on the .2 GT3 compared to the .1 GT3, and they can choose to charge $15,000 more for the .2 GT3 car if they feel like it and still sell each of them, so I don't get how a $500 crank would prevent a 4.0L .2 GT3.

sccchiii

To you and I in purchase world no of course not $500 means nothing but again you are building thousands of these cars and pennies make drastic operating differences....again it's not just the hypothetically $500 for crank, it's $90 more for this, and $150 more for that until you add up to thousands more per unit. Small differences make big bottom line changes in car world. I've been to a supplier meeting for a luxury manufacturer (yes I fell asleep listening to these folks speak) and it's insane how small the amounts are they argue over in making production model decisions and/or content included or excluded.

kshu1991

So Porsche develop the 4.0 engine for 991.1 RS. And G engine in 991.1 GT3 is actually sharing some part from the RS 4.0 engine, for example the oil filter. Since normal 991.2 are all moving to 3.0 turbo engine, why Porsche bother develop the 4.0 but just put it in 991.1 RS? The more you build, the cheaper it will be, right? I think the right thing to do is put it in the 991.2 GT3, as AP said, from the foreseeable future, GT car will remian NA. So we need a NA engine, and should be better than the 3.8 in the current 991.1 GT3, and we already spent lots of money develop a 4.0 NA engine. If I am the leader of the team, I would use the 4.0 NA. It is easier to get more than 475hp from a 4.0, and I don't want to waste the money building the 4.0 and just put it in 3000 RS + 991 911R.

Macca

I checked today with a Porsche employee regards the post on here about the 991.1 GT3 having new software with engine replacements limiting the engine to 8800 rpm. This is not the case I have been ensured. I had my engine replaced 4 months ago with another local who I know and we both still rev out to 9000 rpm according our ear, bum, tacho and AIM Can telemetry. Im still keen to learn more on this if the OP can put me in touch with the owner of the car concerned.

I still think if you are a track junkie then you'd be better off ordering the current GT4 than ordering the 991.2 GT3 in MT with 4.0L. The gear ratios on the GT4 are not great for tight roads but on the track they mean less shifts and therefore less time lost per lap with up-shifts even with the rev holding feature. By way of example I have a friend with GT4 who up-shifts 3 times per lap with his GT4 where as due to ROW gearing my 993 track car needs 6 shifts for the same lap. Due to the sport mode software holding the revs on up-shift and the more modern box his total shift time losses are 0.4s per lap due to up-shifts versus my 993 loosing around 1.2s. this is a combination of half the shifts required with my shifts costing almost twice the time per shift as I have no rev match. Ive run side my side Vbox analysis between our cars on hero laps on same track...

If the 991.2 GT3 is 50kg heavier than a GT4 and has a 6 speed box with tighter ratios and therefore say an extra 2 shifts per lap on my local track then I cant see how the same driver would be quicker than in a GT4. Considering the 4,0L RS and R 4.0L engine have 339bft and the GT4 has 310lbft the difference in lbft/kg is negligible, the GT4 chassis is more forgiving and there will be around 0.3s per lap saved on up-shifting...

I cant help but think if i were in the market for a manual Gt experience id go the GT4 and pocket the 70K USD?

Macca

....

Kobalt

Always interesting reading your posts Macca!

Macca

:-) I am to please mate...

I'm addressing the elephant in the room.

I'm very happy with PDK on my track car. I'm also a manual lover hence my RS spec 993. I'm also a big 911 fan/snob. I'm also a lover of the harder core RS and GT3 variants of these cars hence past ownership of 64/93RS, mk1 6GT3 etc.

So it pains me to say the GT4 appears the more compelling proposition in a MT GT car on face value looking at the potential specs of the new GT3! Heck they have even made it look like a larger GT4, what's that all about (assumes the leaked drawing is real which I feel certain it is)?

I've done the math and it's already close between a well set up and driven GT4 and a PDK GT3 on a tight cambered track so I can't see how The new car can bring any advantages in MT. They will need the PDK variant to post the Ring time and set a hero lap!!

For me the GT3/RS Unique Selling Point for track junkies becomes the PDK. If you strip the romance out of the equation it is the way to go. Otherwise buy yourself a second car with the 70k USD saving!

GrantG

I personally wish I was able to shift my GT4 more at the track. But in your calculations, don't forget about the 1,000 rpm higher redline in the GT3. Although the gears are a little shorter, it allows higher speeds in each gear than the GT4. I can imagine that one might shift less in the GT3 on some tracks (on some, you may never get out of 3rd gear in the GT3). So for someone who is concerned about too much shifting in the GT3, I don't think this is a problem.

If available, I'd choose a low-gearing option for my GT3 (for the US - in Germany, 199mph will be awesome on autobahn and Ring).

And surely the extra 115hp, 30ft-lbs, and better torque multiplication through lower gearing is going to mean much more thrust in each gear compared to the GT4. Just wait until the laptimes from SportAuto come - the 991.2 GT3 is going to be way faster than the GT4 at Hockenheim and Ring... The 911R is a good deal faster than GT4 at Hockenheim (1.0 sec on 70 sec lap) and the GT3 is going to be a good amount faster still. On a faster track, the difference will be more pronounced.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim-short

Now one point of agreement we have is that the GT4 is the better value. No argument!

Macca

Hi Grant. There is some truth to this however in a 8600 rpm limited MT 911R you will be shifting no later than 8300 or risk hitting the limiter. So the head room is more like 600-700 rpm is you assume same strategy for the GT4. I have found only in SportAuto mode with the PDK can you shift 9000, if you do it manually you always shift sooner.

Our local track is 2 mile long. My GT3 is mostly in 2/3/4 gears with 5 used once on the longest straight. It never hits 6. Of course I have 7 proper gears with no overdrives so they are stacked fairly close. My 993 has 7000 limiter and I can shift it consistent at 6800 but it revs up slower than GT3. 6 proper gears (ROW G50). I use 2/3/4/5 on the same track. The GT4 uses 2/3/4 on the track and just hits the limiter in 4 at the end of the straight. He uses 2 once and 4 twice. He can drive 65% of the 2 mile track in 3rd only! In 993 I use 2 twice and 4 twice with 5 once so usually 7 up changes but can get that down to 6 on stickier tyres. The GT4 can run the course in 3 upshifts with a fast driver compared to 6 for the 993 on R comps. I can post the overlayed Vbox traces its quite fascinating. The GT3 shifts up 7 times on same course but the loss of times in shifts are almost unable to be measured. None of the cars loose time in downshifts as these are under braking naturally although the GT4 has the benefit of auto blip for smoother pick up and less upset of chassis in sport mode.

I think AP has a challenge on his hands with the manual GT3. Also the diff is likely mechanical and said to be heavier than the electronic unit.

I have not doubt as you say it will be a more involving drivers car on the street and for some perhaps in the track. But more involving than a GT4? I'm not so sure...