2016 GT3RS allocations the truth please read.
06-26-2016, 10:18 AM
#121
Rennlist Member
I know that multiple people have already complained to PCNA about this practice of price gouging by the dealers just to get a bs response from some low level customer service person in Atlanta. I suggest that we file a petition with the CEO and/or some other high ranking official at PCNA and voice our disgust and frustration with this whole process.
06-26-2016, 11:06 AM
#123
Nordschleife Master
Porsche39 ,
I was at the annual Porsche parade last week at jay peak vt. I met and spoke to klaus zellmer the new Ceo of pcna about this very topic because I too would like to purchase a new RS.
He emphatically said that Porsche will not tolerate dealers marking up new cars , (used was a different story ) and they would take corrective action if they aware of the situation
He did not give me the sense that pcna is actively policing this please. pm me I would like to email Him Specific examples and see if he will take corrective action and maybe will work out for both of us.
I was at the annual Porsche parade last week at jay peak vt. I met and spoke to klaus zellmer the new Ceo of pcna about this very topic because I too would like to purchase a new RS.
He emphatically said that Porsche will not tolerate dealers marking up new cars , (used was a different story ) and they would take corrective action if they aware of the situation
He did not give me the sense that pcna is actively policing this please. pm me I would like to email Him Specific examples and see if he will take corrective action and maybe will work out for both of us.
He must have just arrived from another planet.
When he finally wakes up he's got a lot of hand slapping to do.
I hope you informed him of the current state of affairs.
"Good morning mien Furher, hope your sleep was restful. The Allies have just landed at Normandy. Do you want your eggs over easy?
Last edited by Waxer; 06-26-2016 at 11:22 AM.
06-26-2016, 11:18 AM
#124
My 2 cents. The buyers own reputation, relationship, and history with the brand and dealership may have as much to do with an outcome as a dealers varying reasons for selling. Of course there are ethical boundaries that dealers cross and customers justifiably object to but I do think that a degree of responsibility lies with market forces which we all contribute to. Blatant flippers in my book are as much to blame as unscrupulous dealers. To put the blame squarely on a single entity whether it be a dealer or for that matter PCNA may not be fair.
I agree completely. Relationships matter.
06-26-2016, 11:36 AM
#125
Rennlist Member
Wow, alot of raw emotion on this thread, heres my take on why.
1) Loyalty, we see ourselves as the core of enthusiasts, we buy the T-shirts, we sell cars for them with our enthusiasm, it is our passion
2) Many people got their cars at MSRP, according to the poll well over half, but nobody seems to want to talk about that, see #4 below
3) when we dont get ours we wonder why is the company doing this to us we are their "family"
4) Stupidity, no one likes to look/feel stupid, if you paid more than MSRP you feel stupid if somebody else did, old enough to remember the miata and the gouging then and you thought anyone who drove one in the first year was a dummy because they paid it
5) Commodities, are traded, cars aren not seen as commodities by us because we know more can be made
6) We know the supply is being artificially limited which has caused this problem for us, see 1 above
7) not all of us can pay ridiculous amounts, we see it at a price in a magazine thats justified and when we hear its not true, and we're pissed because of #5 above
8) we think PAG/PCNA can do something to stop this but wont see #1 and 6 above and because we hear Ferrari has stopped it Ford GT has stopped it and didnt Lexus LFA also?
9) some of us have enough money to not care, we feel they cause the problem if we dont
10) disappointment, we work hard to afford a car like this, it gives the performance at more than a Corvette Price but less than a Ferrari/Lambo price, we buy it because it punches above its weight class, we like that, but when we cant get it for a reasonable price after seeing it in a magazine the question is "why"
Heres an example from my GT3RS Lego Technic buying experience, I got to store first day they were available, i bought one online to get free shipping and sale price on the Lego 917/918 combo, I wanted 2, I bought one at the store and ordered one, I thought "if only buying a real one was so easy" Lego has had to redesign the box, its taking some time, on ebay and amazon they are selling at a premium, Im happy to have mine at MSRP and will wait for the other at MSRP because Lego is making more its just taking time. Im happy, not stressed and if I didn't get it first day would've been happy to wait before spending more than it was worth to me
As for to many Panameras than demand, cant they flex the factory and build more Macans? i think the issue with Panamera is most people dont realize its really a S-class competitor we're looking for an M3/M5 fighter. My problem with it was for me it was harder to climb in and out of than my 911, most S-Class buyers are too old to handle the contortion
1) Loyalty, we see ourselves as the core of enthusiasts, we buy the T-shirts, we sell cars for them with our enthusiasm, it is our passion
2) Many people got their cars at MSRP, according to the poll well over half, but nobody seems to want to talk about that, see #4 below
3) when we dont get ours we wonder why is the company doing this to us we are their "family"
4) Stupidity, no one likes to look/feel stupid, if you paid more than MSRP you feel stupid if somebody else did, old enough to remember the miata and the gouging then and you thought anyone who drove one in the first year was a dummy because they paid it
5) Commodities, are traded, cars aren not seen as commodities by us because we know more can be made
6) We know the supply is being artificially limited which has caused this problem for us, see 1 above
7) not all of us can pay ridiculous amounts, we see it at a price in a magazine thats justified and when we hear its not true, and we're pissed because of #5 above
8) we think PAG/PCNA can do something to stop this but wont see #1 and 6 above and because we hear Ferrari has stopped it Ford GT has stopped it and didnt Lexus LFA also?
9) some of us have enough money to not care, we feel they cause the problem if we dont
10) disappointment, we work hard to afford a car like this, it gives the performance at more than a Corvette Price but less than a Ferrari/Lambo price, we buy it because it punches above its weight class, we like that, but when we cant get it for a reasonable price after seeing it in a magazine the question is "why"
Heres an example from my GT3RS Lego Technic buying experience, I got to store first day they were available, i bought one online to get free shipping and sale price on the Lego 917/918 combo, I wanted 2, I bought one at the store and ordered one, I thought "if only buying a real one was so easy" Lego has had to redesign the box, its taking some time, on ebay and amazon they are selling at a premium, Im happy to have mine at MSRP and will wait for the other at MSRP because Lego is making more its just taking time. Im happy, not stressed and if I didn't get it first day would've been happy to wait before spending more than it was worth to me
As for to many Panameras than demand, cant they flex the factory and build more Macans? i think the issue with Panamera is most people dont realize its really a S-class competitor we're looking for an M3/M5 fighter. My problem with it was for me it was harder to climb in and out of than my 911, most S-Class buyers are too old to handle the contortion
06-26-2016, 11:38 AM
#126
Nordschleife Master
06-26-2016, 11:39 AM
#127
I do not think that prices are a problem, nor do I think that mark ups above MSRP are a problem. In my opinion, the real issue starts with the fact that not everyone is paying the same price or having the same experience. Making this worse is the fact that some dealers are not being completely honest and/or consistent, either in comparison to other dealers or among their own customers who happen to come across them. I know this may be an unpopular position, but I have no issue paying above "market price" for things I own out of enjoyment; I have paid above “MSRP” in the past. I simply do not want to look or feel "stupid."
06-26-2016, 11:48 AM
#128
Race Director
Originally Posted by Waxer
GT3 very high mileage.
RS very low option car.
Underscores high ADM and market values still prevail.
RS very low option car.
Underscores high ADM and market values still prevail.
119 GT3 and 47 RS's
06-26-2016, 12:02 PM
#129
Drifting
PCNA knows and doesn't care. I truly believe the market is being driven up by the dealers which have banded together to push what they know is both a limited and in demand product. Can anyone blame them? That's business. I've purchased some killer left over models at insane discounts, so in the end it all evens out-- both for me and the dealer.
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06-26-2016, 12:42 PM
#130
Nordschleife Master
Ah, missed that. Again, confirms the same ol' thing. Cars are avaiable but at high premiums.
Look, heres the deal, at least how I see it.
Guys, that don't have RS's are pissed cause the want them and can't get them except at a high premium unless you are one of the lucky few that got or gets an allocation at MSRP. Far and few between on those.
Guys without RS's that want them, and there will always be guys that want them since it is an RS and a fabulous one at that want prices to come down so they don't have to either pony up ADMs or so they can afford it.
Guys that already own RS really don't want prices to come down since it clearly affects the value of what they own. Now that includes me.
Who wants to see the value of what they own drop? No one.
I was in the non owner camp prior to March 2016. I was frustrated and pissed at the ADMs. Pissed at dealers. Pissed at PCNA. Pissed at PAG. Just pissed in general at the situation. Didn't want to pay $260K+ which was the going rate back then or more and still seems to be around the going rate bottom line at market. Nope, I wanted my RS at list and I wanted it NOW!
Still on the list at my dealer (one of the top 20 in the country anyway) and still waiting for a call. I know some here have gotten the call and thats great for them. But they are the tip of the iceberg of guys that want these things I'm afraid. As Chris Harris said "people are fighting the streets to get one".
Everyone is selfish to a point me inluded. Be honest. That's what capitalism is based on at its heart. You charge and pay what the market will support because you can. You buy something when you value it as much or more then the money in your pocket for whatever reason.
As long as there is no price fixing the dealers are entitled to get what the market will support. Capitalism. Now that I own an RS I hope that in the future the market will support more for the '16 RS. Sorry. Its just human nature and I'm no Ghandhi or Mother Teresa. Thats capitalism. Pure and simple as others have noted. I agree that dealers should just be honest though and most I called were straight up and said, yeah we have one its $275K etc...They didn't care if I was an eskimo from Alaska as long as I had enough money to buy.
If the market drops on the '16 RS the market will drop for all other GT3s and RS's imho. Not good for the GT Porsche mark IMHO.
I didn't buy my RS to resell. Got lucky and found a private sale that was anxious to sell for personal reasons. Paid sub $240K for a $210K list car with $8,000.00 Xpel full satin wrap. I bought it because I love it, figured, if I include the price of the wrap I'm at about $20K over and likely won't get better than that unless I get the call for an allocation. So eventhough I didn't buy to resell, that doesn't mean I want to see the value deflat either.
As the saying goes, one man's tea is another man's poison.
Oh, I did speak with my dealer on Friday (bought at least 1/2 dozen P cars from them in last 10 years) and they told me they did get another RS allocaton but it went to someone else above me. Ugh! My son would have bought the car. (Pause on phone). Didn't get angry. Just said "Oh, Ok, keep my deposit and keep me on the list and make it for a GT2RS." GM said you got it and you are now right there".
That's the system. It is what it is. Not likely to change.
Nothing in life worthwhile is easy boys.
Look, heres the deal, at least how I see it.
Guys, that don't have RS's are pissed cause the want them and can't get them except at a high premium unless you are one of the lucky few that got or gets an allocation at MSRP. Far and few between on those.
Guys without RS's that want them, and there will always be guys that want them since it is an RS and a fabulous one at that want prices to come down so they don't have to either pony up ADMs or so they can afford it.
Guys that already own RS really don't want prices to come down since it clearly affects the value of what they own. Now that includes me.
Who wants to see the value of what they own drop? No one.
I was in the non owner camp prior to March 2016. I was frustrated and pissed at the ADMs. Pissed at dealers. Pissed at PCNA. Pissed at PAG. Just pissed in general at the situation. Didn't want to pay $260K+ which was the going rate back then or more and still seems to be around the going rate bottom line at market. Nope, I wanted my RS at list and I wanted it NOW!
Still on the list at my dealer (one of the top 20 in the country anyway) and still waiting for a call. I know some here have gotten the call and thats great for them. But they are the tip of the iceberg of guys that want these things I'm afraid. As Chris Harris said "people are fighting the streets to get one".
Everyone is selfish to a point me inluded. Be honest. That's what capitalism is based on at its heart. You charge and pay what the market will support because you can. You buy something when you value it as much or more then the money in your pocket for whatever reason.
As long as there is no price fixing the dealers are entitled to get what the market will support. Capitalism. Now that I own an RS I hope that in the future the market will support more for the '16 RS. Sorry. Its just human nature and I'm no Ghandhi or Mother Teresa. Thats capitalism. Pure and simple as others have noted. I agree that dealers should just be honest though and most I called were straight up and said, yeah we have one its $275K etc...They didn't care if I was an eskimo from Alaska as long as I had enough money to buy.
If the market drops on the '16 RS the market will drop for all other GT3s and RS's imho. Not good for the GT Porsche mark IMHO.
I didn't buy my RS to resell. Got lucky and found a private sale that was anxious to sell for personal reasons. Paid sub $240K for a $210K list car with $8,000.00 Xpel full satin wrap. I bought it because I love it, figured, if I include the price of the wrap I'm at about $20K over and likely won't get better than that unless I get the call for an allocation. So eventhough I didn't buy to resell, that doesn't mean I want to see the value deflat either.
As the saying goes, one man's tea is another man's poison.
Oh, I did speak with my dealer on Friday (bought at least 1/2 dozen P cars from them in last 10 years) and they told me they did get another RS allocaton but it went to someone else above me. Ugh! My son would have bought the car. (Pause on phone). Didn't get angry. Just said "Oh, Ok, keep my deposit and keep me on the list and make it for a GT2RS." GM said you got it and you are now right there".
That's the system. It is what it is. Not likely to change.
Nothing in life worthwhile is easy boys.
06-26-2016, 01:49 PM
#131
Nordschleife Master
Lot's of interesting comments but at the end of the day PAG is a business and we are the buyers. Buy them if you like the price, or stay without and move on.
06-26-2016, 02:30 PM
#132
Burning Brakes
In the US, there are numerous Porsche dealers who strictly sell their GT cars at MSRP. It seems this issue of high markups is regional and used to be called the California Hustle for a reason. Unless there is price fixing here, there isn't much to be done. I suppose PCNA could rein it in by penalizing the bad actors with fewer allocations, but they have not chosen to do so.
Last edited by mcsmcs1; 06-26-2016 at 03:04 PM.
06-26-2016, 02:39 PM
#133
Rennlist Member
thats the problem, over time some people get tired of the game, they dont play and Porsche makes less = less cool stuff for us and only ********* like Kanye buy from them.
Heres an example, when a new version of the Prelude came out, a friend and I went to a dealership, he wanted look and then buy-cash,he was told no test drives without a non refundable deposit, and all cars are $3500 over list with $400 prep charge and $150 advertising fee", the salesmen said they were very 'limited" he had a cheap suit and smelled of nicotine, my friend and i were dressed kind of scuzzy, but my friend was wearing some kind of expensive Italian leather shoes and a Rolex Submariner (he reads GQ, my rule is in general i dont buy magazines with lots of pictures of men in it)
My friend says why would I hand you extra money, they make these things all day in Japan, I dont need it that bad, and why would I give you money thats non refundable if I havent even decided to buy the car just to drive your demo, he says "I dont make the rules, its not my fault Im just following orders etc etc" (right, "Im a Professional) We felt treated like dirt, my friend says I work hard to buy a car and now i have to deal with this, forget it. He never looked at a Honda again, even when I told him the NSX was awesome because Senna had helped develop it, hes still mad today.
He does have 2 Porsches, both bought used, he wont play "games"
Thats the problem, it burns out the kid on you, the enthusiasm, turns joy into pain. its like the mail order bride or puppy scam where they want more money from you
Heres an example, when a new version of the Prelude came out, a friend and I went to a dealership, he wanted look and then buy-cash,he was told no test drives without a non refundable deposit, and all cars are $3500 over list with $400 prep charge and $150 advertising fee", the salesmen said they were very 'limited" he had a cheap suit and smelled of nicotine, my friend and i were dressed kind of scuzzy, but my friend was wearing some kind of expensive Italian leather shoes and a Rolex Submariner (he reads GQ, my rule is in general i dont buy magazines with lots of pictures of men in it)
My friend says why would I hand you extra money, they make these things all day in Japan, I dont need it that bad, and why would I give you money thats non refundable if I havent even decided to buy the car just to drive your demo, he says "I dont make the rules, its not my fault Im just following orders etc etc" (right, "Im a Professional) We felt treated like dirt, my friend says I work hard to buy a car and now i have to deal with this, forget it. He never looked at a Honda again, even when I told him the NSX was awesome because Senna had helped develop it, hes still mad today.
He does have 2 Porsches, both bought used, he wont play "games"
Thats the problem, it burns out the kid on you, the enthusiasm, turns joy into pain. its like the mail order bride or puppy scam where they want more money from you
06-26-2016, 02:48 PM
#134
Pro
So read the above comments my issue ,I would like an RS . My local dealer is smaller and only got one allocation and unfortunately for me I was not in the number one spot
I only own 3 Porsches there will always be some one w more minus the exception of one
So thus I have been looking for one from other dealers. I have no issue with the price if it is consistent across the board whatever that number is
No difference if your Nieghbor and you have the same house on the street but they pay 30% less in taxes
I'm sure there would not be person in this country that wouldn't grieve their taxes
Porsche dealers are so blatant about their premiums , it is very easy for pcna to act if they wanted to.
So I will wait and see what see what the future brings, the capital markets always seem sort out price discrepancies. Especially if they announce the .2 in manual. There won't be a lacking of .1 supply
I only own 3 Porsches there will always be some one w more minus the exception of one
So thus I have been looking for one from other dealers. I have no issue with the price if it is consistent across the board whatever that number is
No difference if your Nieghbor and you have the same house on the street but they pay 30% less in taxes
I'm sure there would not be person in this country that wouldn't grieve their taxes
Porsche dealers are so blatant about their premiums , it is very easy for pcna to act if they wanted to.
So I will wait and see what see what the future brings, the capital markets always seem sort out price discrepancies. Especially if they announce the .2 in manual. There won't be a lacking of .1 supply
06-26-2016, 02:55 PM
#135
Intermediate
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I'm confused what's so hard to accept here?
EVERYBODY knows what's going on. From Zellmer on down.
You act like you've uncovered some conspiracy when the ones you want to alert to the "perceived injustices" are the ones condoning it!
I think your emotions are getting ahead of your rational thinking.
First time ever posting on RL, and this is the thread you start?? Plus making all sort of inaccurate claims on dealer profit, etc. Seems questionable.
EVERYBODY knows what's going on. From Zellmer on down.
You act like you've uncovered some conspiracy when the ones you want to alert to the "perceived injustices" are the ones condoning it!
I think your emotions are getting ahead of your rational thinking.
First time ever posting on RL, and this is the thread you start?? Plus making all sort of inaccurate claims on dealer profit, etc. Seems questionable.
I think that you can't see the forest for the trees, you are focusing on a small detail which is irrelevant as msrp on any vehicle is more than enough no matter what the dealer profit is.
The real issue is the high markups 50k and above. The price gouging. The inconsistency in the rules required to obtain a GT car and loyal customers who have purchased several vehicles form dealerships building long relationships being jumped in the Que by dealers willing to pay the highest bid so they can resell the car.
The issue is not how much percentage the dealer makes on MSRP and I apologize for any inaccurate information and that has been removed.
And you state the ones I alert of the perceived injustices are the ones condoning it??? The true purpose of this thread is to alert RL members of whats going on so they can be aware so that don't fall for this bs.
If Porsche wants to make the GT car game like Ferrari then do come up with some rules. Ive said it before and ill say it again the dealers are controlling the order book like a corrupt market maker on a stock exchange. They are bidding the price up its not real.