How many 15-16 gt3's have engine replaced?
10-01-2016, 04:22 AM
#1786
Mark. Firstly, commiserations!
Secondly, congratulations.
You have done very well to get this far IMO. One of the "leaders on the board". I do believe that a lack of track work has helped significantly with the lonegivity of your valve train along with regular oil changes and good warm up protocol. I also believe that there is some variance in when particular engine will trigger the "missfire code". Some, like my own, with very little wear to the finger follower pad, others like yourself after quite alot of wear and material has been removed from the face of the pad.
The reality of the situation is that there is nothing you could have done to avoid this. The good news is I believe at the very least you will receive the new heads with DLC cams and finger followers etc. It is possible you will receive an entirely new "G1" engine, the same architecture used in the lastest RS and 911R. Even better. Either way I would not be overly concerned, the filer is on the valve-train side and should have caught the majority of the debris one would hope. If you receive the new G1 engine maybe you will keep this car forever -0 it will be the only 8500++ screamer, if not then the choice is yours to enjoy and then sell when the warranty is up. Push hard and see if you can get the full engine, state your concerns with the material missing and possible effects to the bottom end etc.
I know this is not the time or place for it, but there is much talk the new 991.2 GT3 will adopt the 2017 911 GT3 Cup engine architecture and this will arrest the problem, along with the reduced redline for good. I do hope thats the case. People are pointing to oiling as the issue. But its clear there is more at play here than just throwing more lubricant at the mating surfaces between cam lobe and finger follower. Perhaps the recent DLC on DLC factory solution finally addresses this for good, and the timing of this update after the 9A1 motorsports engine was finalized and run in series 9jan 2016) would indicate to me this is a strong possibility. If not then I would suggest a total redisgn is in play with the current motorsports 9A1 engine and this will manifest itself as a production variant in the next 991.2 GT3. Only time will tell, if the DLC/DLC solution is the only significant change to the engines forthwith then rest assured your new heads/engine will serve you well for a long time. If the engine can be made 100% reliable I cant see what more one could want from a GT3 package such as the 991.1 GT3 (other than MT for those who do not track frequently).
Please keep up informed of progress. Travel well.
Secondly, congratulations.
You have done very well to get this far IMO. One of the "leaders on the board". I do believe that a lack of track work has helped significantly with the lonegivity of your valve train along with regular oil changes and good warm up protocol. I also believe that there is some variance in when particular engine will trigger the "missfire code". Some, like my own, with very little wear to the finger follower pad, others like yourself after quite alot of wear and material has been removed from the face of the pad.
The reality of the situation is that there is nothing you could have done to avoid this. The good news is I believe at the very least you will receive the new heads with DLC cams and finger followers etc. It is possible you will receive an entirely new "G1" engine, the same architecture used in the lastest RS and 911R. Even better. Either way I would not be overly concerned, the filer is on the valve-train side and should have caught the majority of the debris one would hope. If you receive the new G1 engine maybe you will keep this car forever -0 it will be the only 8500++ screamer, if not then the choice is yours to enjoy and then sell when the warranty is up. Push hard and see if you can get the full engine, state your concerns with the material missing and possible effects to the bottom end etc.
I know this is not the time or place for it, but there is much talk the new 991.2 GT3 will adopt the 2017 911 GT3 Cup engine architecture and this will arrest the problem, along with the reduced redline for good. I do hope thats the case. People are pointing to oiling as the issue. But its clear there is more at play here than just throwing more lubricant at the mating surfaces between cam lobe and finger follower. Perhaps the recent DLC on DLC factory solution finally addresses this for good, and the timing of this update after the 9A1 motorsports engine was finalized and run in series 9jan 2016) would indicate to me this is a strong possibility. If not then I would suggest a total redisgn is in play with the current motorsports 9A1 engine and this will manifest itself as a production variant in the next 991.2 GT3. Only time will tell, if the DLC/DLC solution is the only significant change to the engines forthwith then rest assured your new heads/engine will serve you well for a long time. If the engine can be made 100% reliable I cant see what more one could want from a GT3 package such as the 991.1 GT3 (other than MT for those who do not track frequently).
Please keep up informed of progress. Travel well.
First of all very sorry to hear about the car above.....
M,
In view of this Topic, do you think regular oil changes help a lot. I ask due to the fact like you I had an Early 91GT3, Oct 13. It had done about 4k miles and 5 track days by the time it was called in for its new Engine in Feb 14. I kept this car until July 15. On both engines it did over 30 Track and V-max type events. Not once did it ever miss a beat. Like my Current 91RS, I change Oil and filter after every 3-4 Events....
10-01-2016, 05:53 AM
#1788
It's OK, Mark.
Every single 991.1 GT3 will be there sooner or later. Your 2nd engine lasted more miles before rebuild than mine did.
I would not hope on getting a 3rd engine. Most like likely they'll give you a rebuild. That's what they do lately.
Every single 991.1 GT3 will be there sooner or later. Your 2nd engine lasted more miles before rebuild than mine did.
I would not hope on getting a 3rd engine. Most like likely they'll give you a rebuild. That's what they do lately.
10-01-2016, 12:57 PM
#1789
One of my friends just got infamous "Engine control fault" message on his GT3.
MY15, F engine, 17500 km, some track usage (1500-2000 km on track, AFAIK).
Short summary:
There are 4 of 991 GT3 cars I'm well informed about where I live. Two MY14 (including my own) and two MY15 (there are 2 more, but I'm not keeping close enough contact with the owners to be sure about their cars issues. From what I know, one of them still has only delivery miles on the clock).
Out of these 4 cars, 1 MY14 and both MY15 are already affected by engine issue, all of them under 20.000 km.
4rd car is MY14 with 13.000 km that is for sale since last year. Owner doesn't drive it at all. I was actually thinking about getting this as a spare car for myself, when my car was in a long engine rebuild, but I believe this car will bring a nice and very fast delivered surprise to a new owner, so I refrained from picking it up.
So much about "just some cars are affected".
MY15, F engine, 17500 km, some track usage (1500-2000 km on track, AFAIK).
Short summary:
There are 4 of 991 GT3 cars I'm well informed about where I live. Two MY14 (including my own) and two MY15 (there are 2 more, but I'm not keeping close enough contact with the owners to be sure about their cars issues. From what I know, one of them still has only delivery miles on the clock).
Out of these 4 cars, 1 MY14 and both MY15 are already affected by engine issue, all of them under 20.000 km.
4rd car is MY14 with 13.000 km that is for sale since last year. Owner doesn't drive it at all. I was actually thinking about getting this as a spare car for myself, when my car was in a long engine rebuild, but I believe this car will bring a nice and very fast delivered surprise to a new owner, so I refrained from picking it up.
So much about "just some cars are affected".
10-01-2016, 05:35 PM
#1790
When I look at those pictures of the cam follower, it seems like the cam lobe is hitting the follower rather than following it. At very high rpm I wonder if the cam hits the follower and then the follower floats a bit before hitting again on the down side. It's sad to see that on an engine with 15000 miles.
I can't believe a Porsche engineer can't look at that wear and know exactly what the problem is.
I can't believe a Porsche engineer can't look at that wear and know exactly what the problem is.
10-01-2016, 05:58 PM
#1791
Rennlist Member
When I look at those pictures of the cam follower, it seems like the cam lobe is hitting the follower rather than following it. At very high rpm I wonder if the cam hits the follower and then the follower floats a bit before hitting again on the down side. It's sad to see that on an engine with 15000 miles. I can't believe a Porsche engineer can't look at that wear and know exactly what the problem is.
10-01-2016, 06:18 PM
#1792
Race Director
^The scary thing is they knew of these issues but continue to pump these cars out making updates as they go. I guess they figure cheaper then a recall and engine replacements for all. Actually, very reckless and disappointing on their part but it is all about risk/reward/cost
10-01-2016, 07:31 PM
#1793
Rennlist Member
^The scary thing is they knew of these issues but continue to pump these cars out making updates as they go. I guess they figure cheaper then a recall and engine replacements for all. Actually, very reckless and disappointing on their part but it is all about risk/reward/cost
It is not possible to rust any product, even the new GT3 next year, until its had time to be proven. Its very easy to look back 20 years and say Mezger "good engine". Sure hindsight is nice but the road was rocky and by the end it was pretty sorted engine. At some point you need to get on with it and if you cant wait 10 years to find out if what you want is perfect then take the chance now and live with the adventure than may pursue.
Jimmy, if you are the worrying type I would not consider any 991.1 product including 911R or even 991.2 GT3 may not be fully resolved on launch or in its first 18 months production. Maybe one towards the end is better?
What Im getting at here is that I suspect the speed at which the market is moving with competitors vying for the same dollar, we will have to expect in the future to have more warranty concerns than in the recent past. Just go in eyes wide open and none of this will be an issue for you....
10-01-2016, 09:38 PM
#1794
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We have heads ordered to finish up the last few bits on the long term solution to this, to those seeing the lifter being the culprit you're on the correct path. The issue has to do with the force that the lifter is pressing the finger follower against the cam lobe, and the lack of space left between the lobe and the follower for an oil film.
The hope was that the new DLC cams were of a different dimension to give a little more room in the system.
I'm also pursuing details on the new DFI cup engine to see what, if any, differences are in the Cup variant.
The hope was that the new DLC cams were of a different dimension to give a little more room in the system.
I'm also pursuing details on the new DFI cup engine to see what, if any, differences are in the Cup variant.
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Dundon Motorsports
Gig Harbor, WA
253-200-4454
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Dundon Motorsports
Gig Harbor, WA
253-200-4454
jamie@dundonmotorsports.com
www.dundonmotorsports.com
Facebook.com/dundonmotorsports
Instagram @dundon_motorsports
10-01-2016, 10:00 PM
#1795
Rennlist Member
Thanks Jamie for the update. Exciting. Where the lobes in the DLC camshafts a different width? Or is this still unkown?
Last edited by Macca; 10-02-2016 at 01:27 AM.
10-02-2016, 12:33 AM
#1796
We have heads ordered to finish up the last few bits on the long term solution to this, to those seeing the lifter being the culprit you're on the correct path. The issue has to do with the force that the lifter is pressing the finger follower against the cam lobe, and the lack of space left between the lobe and the follower for an oil film.
The hope was that the new DLC cams were of a different dimension to give a little more room in the system.
I'm also pursuing details on the new DFI cup engine to see what, if any, differences are in the Cup variant.
The hope was that the new DLC cams were of a different dimension to give a little more room in the system.
I'm also pursuing details on the new DFI cup engine to see what, if any, differences are in the Cup variant.
10-02-2016, 07:24 AM
#1797
Rennlist Member
Maybe everyone should hsve just stuck with the rule to only put race proven engines in the GT cars. Meanwhile, it's a full on stripes and decals fiesta over in the R forum.
10-02-2016, 08:09 AM
#1799
Rennlist Member
Yeah, but I doubt those cars will ever be properly driven, so its likely their owners will need to venture to this board in a few years time ;-P