MotorTrend: Viper ACR versus C7 Z06 versus RS
01-11-2016, 08:13 PM
#168
Rennlist Member
997RS4.0 / Peter, I totally get what you mean.
Not a GT3R but a 911RSAmerica hell a GT4RSAmerica. Cheaper, faster, funnier betterer.
BUT!
Soft suspension = comfy + incredible grip on track. Betterer at both.
They just got it right. Just like really grippy CUP cars with rally based suspension setups. It doesn't shift, accellerates, sounds, corners or brake "soft". I'd say much more exhilarating than a 997 this side of the Sharky 4.1 maybe.
Now the drivers could be getting soft, I am because I like that I don't have to be tough to drive it, but the 4.0 was also softer than the 3.8RS and those already felt like caddies to me.. I drove a full cage Rustang for 5 years every day. Kirkby seats, rock hard, the whole bit. You get used to it. Now I like to make my massage appointments on the way home from the track on blue tooth
The new RS is just as soft but less clunkier than the 997's.
A stock 964 is soft, hell a stock 964CUP was softer as a racecar than some BMW SUV's of 10-15 years ago. Cars just getting to hard to function right.
But I know you don't just mean suspension.
To me a GT3 has always been about driving to the track, drive great on canyon roads and do it in relative comfort.
You can make it tough guy like by deleting AC and Radio and stuff if you want but I don't think that's the spirit of the car, than just get a CUP car. Or better a 400HP air cooled race car.
The ACR might be romantic to some. For me it's decent value for the fastest thing on the track. But still a Dodge, so let's see how it works long term. Some experimenting with tires is not looking too great yet. Maybe can be an easy solution though..
Likely most owners will only drive it to the track, or trailer it on R7's or slicks so you might as well get a safer race car and leave it ready to go in a trailer.
I'd enjoy a GT4 more I think. But I'm soft.
For every day driving a manual the ACR is just too much car to enjoy for me. So is the GT3 but at least it sits right and you can take it to a Porsche dealer with Porsche warranty, hell, even sit comfortable with the AC and radio to keep you comfy on runs to the beer store while chatting on Bluetooth.
Although I do prefer my 500E for that. Now if you want to talk comfy, THAT's soft. No other cars will go over my local speed bumps as fast and comfy as the 500E, it puts an Sclass without Magic Ride Suspension to shame.. Yes, I added Bluetooth and sat radio to that as well
Not a GT3R but a 911RSAmerica hell a GT4RSAmerica. Cheaper, faster, funnier betterer.
BUT!
Soft suspension = comfy + incredible grip on track. Betterer at both.
They just got it right. Just like really grippy CUP cars with rally based suspension setups. It doesn't shift, accellerates, sounds, corners or brake "soft". I'd say much more exhilarating than a 997 this side of the Sharky 4.1 maybe.
Now the drivers could be getting soft, I am because I like that I don't have to be tough to drive it, but the 4.0 was also softer than the 3.8RS and those already felt like caddies to me.. I drove a full cage Rustang for 5 years every day. Kirkby seats, rock hard, the whole bit. You get used to it. Now I like to make my massage appointments on the way home from the track on blue tooth
The new RS is just as soft but less clunkier than the 997's.
A stock 964 is soft, hell a stock 964CUP was softer as a racecar than some BMW SUV's of 10-15 years ago. Cars just getting to hard to function right.
But I know you don't just mean suspension.
To me a GT3 has always been about driving to the track, drive great on canyon roads and do it in relative comfort.
You can make it tough guy like by deleting AC and Radio and stuff if you want but I don't think that's the spirit of the car, than just get a CUP car. Or better a 400HP air cooled race car.
The ACR might be romantic to some. For me it's decent value for the fastest thing on the track. But still a Dodge, so let's see how it works long term. Some experimenting with tires is not looking too great yet. Maybe can be an easy solution though..
Likely most owners will only drive it to the track, or trailer it on R7's or slicks so you might as well get a safer race car and leave it ready to go in a trailer.
I'd enjoy a GT4 more I think. But I'm soft.
For every day driving a manual the ACR is just too much car to enjoy for me. So is the GT3 but at least it sits right and you can take it to a Porsche dealer with Porsche warranty, hell, even sit comfortable with the AC and radio to keep you comfy on runs to the beer store while chatting on Bluetooth.
Although I do prefer my 500E for that. Now if you want to talk comfy, THAT's soft. No other cars will go over my local speed bumps as fast and comfy as the 500E, it puts an Sclass without Magic Ride Suspension to shame.. Yes, I added Bluetooth and sat radio to that as well
01-11-2016, 08:32 PM
#169
997RS4.0 / Peter, I totally get what you mean. Not a GT3R but a 911RSAmerica hell a GT4RSAmerica. Cheaper, faster, funnier betterer. BUT! Soft suspension = comfy + incredible grip on track. Betterer at both. They just got it right. Just like really grippy CUP cars with rally based suspension setups. It doesn't shift, accellerates, sounds, corners or brake "soft". I'd say much more exhilarating than a 997 this side of the Sharky 4.1 maybe. Now the drivers could be getting soft, I am because I like that I don't have to be tough to drive it, but the 4.0 was also softer than the 3.8RS and those already felt like caddies to me.. I drove a full cage Rustang for 5 years every day. Kirkby seats, rock hard, the whole bit. You get used to it. Now I like to make my massage appointments on the way home from the track on blue tooth The new RS is just as soft but less clunkier than the 997's. A stock 964 is soft, hell a stock 964CUP was softer as a racecar than some BMW SUV's of 10-15 years ago. Cars just getting to hard to function right. But I know you don't just mean suspension. To me a GT3 has always been about driving to the track, drive great on canyon roads and do it in relative comfort. You can make it tough guy like by deleting AC and Radio and stuff if you want but I don't think that's the spirit of the car, than just get a CUP car. Or better a 400HP air cooled race car. The ACR might be romantic to some. For me it's decent value for the fastest thing on the track. But still a Dodge, so let's see how it works long term. Some experimenting with tires is not looking too great yet. Maybe get be a easy solution though.. Likely most owners will only drive it to the track, or trailer it on R7's or slicks so you might as well get a safer race car and leave it ready to go in a trailer. I'd enjoy a GT4 more I think. But I'm soft. For every day driving a manual the ACR is just too much car to enjoy for me. So is the GT3 but at least it sits right and you can take it to a Porsche dealer with Porsche warranty, hell, even sit comfortable with the AC and radio to keep you comfy on runs to the beer store while chatting on Bluetooth. Although I do prefer my 500E for that. Now if you want to talk comfy, THAT's soft. No other cars will go over my local speed bumps as fast and comfy as the 500E it puts an Sclass without Magic Ride Suspension to shame..
The new RS is just as soft but less clunkier than the 997's. A stock 964 is soft, hell a stock 964CUP was softer as a racecar than some BMW SUV's of 10-15 years ago. Cars just getting to hard to function right. But I know you don't just mean suspension. To me a GT3 has always been about driving to the track, drive great on canyon roads and do it in relative comfort. You can make it tough guy like by deleting AC and Radio and stuff if you want but I don't think that's the spirit of the car, than just get a CUP car. Or better a 400HP air cooled race car. The ACR might be romantic to some. For me it's decent value for the fastest thing on the track. But still a Dodge, so let's see how it works long term. Some experimenting with tires is not looking too great yet. Maybe get be a easy solution though.. Likely most owners will only drive it to the track, or trailer it on R7's or slicks so you might as well get a safer race car and leave it ready to go in a trailer. I'd enjoy a GT4 more I think. But I'm soft. For every day driving a manual the ACR is just too much car to enjoy for me. So is the GT3 but at least it sits right and you can take it to a Porsche dealer with Porsche warranty, hell, even sit comfortable with the AC and radio to keep you comfy on runs to the beer store while chatting on Bluetooth. Although I do prefer my 500E for that. Now if you want to talk comfy, THAT's soft. No other cars will go over my local speed bumps as fast and comfy as the 500E it puts an Sclass without Magic Ride Suspension to shame..Peter,
I really value your opinion. You drive these beauties the way it was intended.
My comments have as you mentioned little to do with suspension.
It's the overall package of the modern RS that I personally would have liked more hard core. There is definitely room in the line up.
With every model of 911 getting bigger and more luxurious the RS feels less and less RS.
If you take away all the leather and add alcantara dash, carbon fiber switch panel and some visible welds it not only saves weight but looks amazing.
You have probably driven the 964ngt and 993rs club sport and know the reference. Even a 996rs that's only 10 years old feels very raw and race car like. But, then even the regular 996gt3 is more hardcore.
01-11-2016, 08:48 PM
#170
Rennlist Member
Thanks, I agree there is some room in the 911 line to accommodate your wishes.
For me just use the RSA, it was just purer AND cheaper.
Take an RS and throw everything out that costs money and adds weight but charge LESS.
And you'd still be stuck with its size..
But I just don't think it can be done anymore. Too many regulations and that's why Singer and cheaper hot rod versions of raw, analog cars keep popping up and getting more and more expensive. Plus you are such an exception, unless it's cheaper most won't go for less...
I haven't driven the 964 ngt, but being in Germany I inquired about 2 of them. A maritime blue and a silver one. 400k euro and 350k respectively. So we are not alone...
But still compared to the next new model, the previous one always adds a bit of clunkynes for me that comes with the more analog territory. So you end up with hot rods..
For me just use the RSA, it was just purer AND cheaper.
Take an RS and throw everything out that costs money and adds weight but charge LESS.
And you'd still be stuck with its size..
But I just don't think it can be done anymore. Too many regulations and that's why Singer and cheaper hot rod versions of raw, analog cars keep popping up and getting more and more expensive. Plus you are such an exception, unless it's cheaper most won't go for less...
I haven't driven the 964 ngt, but being in Germany I inquired about 2 of them. A maritime blue and a silver one. 400k euro and 350k respectively. So we are not alone...
But still compared to the next new model, the previous one always adds a bit of clunkynes for me that comes with the more analog territory. So you end up with hot rods..
01-11-2016, 09:01 PM
#171
Thanks, I agree there is some room in the 911 line to accommodate your wishes. For me just use the RSA, it was just purer AND cheaper. Take an RS and throw everything out that costs money and adds weight but charge LESS. And you'd still be stuck with its size.. But I just don't think it can be done anymore. Too many regulations and that's why Singer and cheaper hot rod versions of raw, analog cars keep popping up and getting more and more expensive. Plus you are such an exception, unless it's cheaper most won't go for less... I haven't driven the 964 ngt, but being in Germany I inquired about 2 of them. A maritime blue and a silver one. 400k euro and 350k respectively. So we are not alone...
The 996rs was a disaster when it came to sales just because of the reasons we posted above. It's not very good on the road but shines at a smooth track.
IMO the 991rs would still be a halo car if it could only be ordered in one or two colors. Very basic interior. Feel like race car. Add radio and AC if you want. That's it.
Because like we said before. RS makes no sense, that's why it's possible to go nuts.
If you want to race, Buy cup car.
If you want to feel like racer. Buy RS.
01-11-2016, 10:10 PM
#175
I test drove the Caterham and it is supposed to be lower maintenance because it uses a Honda K 20 or 24 motor. I have to say that the car I was driving was set up incredibly poorly and much slower than my SR8. My SR8 makes 400 wheel horsepower and spins to 10,500 RPM, so intoxicating in terms of power and sound. That said, It is a 40 hour rebuild cycle on the engine. The Wolf also uses the Honda engine. I think both the Cateham and Honda are more sophisticated chassis and aero with hopefully lower maintenance engines. But Radicals are very readily available used and less expensive to acquire. My Raddy has been pretty good as race cars go but I have had a major engine and gearbox failure and those are expensive. But it's so F'ing fast I still don't care.
01-11-2016, 10:36 PM
#176
Burning Brakes
I have x "factory" Lead Mechanic living here in Atlanta now so, maintenance and repair is not an issue. Of course Caterham is still in business but, building this car only on pre-order. The Lola Chassis is top shelf as are all components. There is a supercharged 2.0 liter ford engine making about 300 hp. The car weighs 1300# wet. I'm told the engine and drive train are easily good for 100 hours and as an TD car much more. This car was built for track days and not as fast as some radicals but it is FAST. very easy to run w/o crew and very low costs. It's a great package and a lot of fun.
01-11-2016, 11:19 PM
#177
Interesting. I'm glad you like your 991RS so much. Just curious, what else is in your garage these days? And by the way, I don't think all of us wanted a 991RS.
Last edited by Leadfoot01; 01-12-2016 at 02:18 AM.
01-11-2016, 11:35 PM
#179
