Mike in CA

Thanks, and same to you! I love talking cars with someone else who loves cars and that is indeed what RL is about.

I have no doubt that the RS models have gotten "softer". My belief, though, is that this is a progression for Porsche that has been going on for over 60 years as their cars, across all model lines, have continuously improved performance-wise but have also become more sophisticated and refined. The same complaints you're voicing now about the RS have been heard from the 356 to the first 911 through to each succeeding model to the current 991.2 with the new turbo motors.

You're absolutely right, the RS models have always been the extreme Porsches but they haven't been immune to the progression, as you see in the difference between your 996RS and 997RS4.0. So it's relative; while the RS is still the extreme, all Porsche cars have moved "forward" and the RS and other GT cars has come along too. This ongoing desire to make each succeeding model more capable in every way is what I mean when I refer to Porsche DNA, and it's why I don't think Porsche will reverse course to build a raw, single purpose track/street car like Dodge did with the ACR.

I'm not passing judgment on this trend, I'm just saying it's what I've observed. Maybe I'm wrong. In any event, I understand completely that it's frustrating for someone like you who wants a more extreme RS. Cheers.

tripleblack

Have an RS & Z/28 in the fleet. ACR on the way. RS is phenomenal. If you can, you should.

ipse dixit

So I have a question.

While I have my own opinions about the Viper (any version), and the RS, and the comparisons between the two, for those who think Viper ACR is the perfect double-duty track car (i.e. daily driver and track toy), why is it that not only have Viper sales been on a steady decline (even with consistent manufacturer discounts) but Dodge is actually ending Viper production for good.

While Porsche can't print enough RS to make people happy it seems (right, Martin?)

Is everyone out there just idiots? That they don't see the glory of the ACR? And are somehow hoodwinked by the Stuttgart crest on the RS?

jpohill

Sounds like we're on similar paths
Patiently waiting for the RS allocation

newalbanyohio

Z28s are interesting. Over the holidays Chevy dropped the prices for 2015 Z28s by $20k. I believe it was for certain dealers for a very short time frame. By the time I heard about the pricing the sale was over.

fastmd

The Viper was never built to be a mainstream car. It's laughable when I here people say how "raw" their 997 gt3, 996 gt3, 360 challenge straddle, 430 scud, etc." If you want a true drivers car for the track that can be used on the road, try a Viper.

I have owned them since 1996 and it's a special car. Many people don't know the true history of Viper, the SRT mgmt are true track rats and have to fight the poor mgmt of Dodge. If you recall it was basically given over to Fiat. The current fast lap at Laguna Seca was done by a Viper exec, not a pro diver like Randy P.

When the current Gen V was designed they thought if they add alcantara, carbon fiber, nice leather, and increase the price it would bring new customers from Porsche etc. What they didn't realize is that most owners of sports cars today do not know how to drive and need all the computers, pdk to keep them from crashing. Also, they need real cupholders for their coffee.

The Viper is and will always be the scrappy blue collar car in the back of paddock, but with the fastest times

I will wager a large amount of money that the ACR will put the smack down against any stock RS on any track with equal drivers who are familiar with each platform.

It takes skill to drive the Viper fast, but if you are smooth and respect the power you will be rewarded.

I love Porsche and I will appreciate my RS, but I am car enthusiast and just not a brand enthusiast and I will always choose to own one for a pure driving experience.

C.J. Ichiban

Viper has wimpy airbags and will have to redesign chassis for the side curtains. That law goes into effect soon- henceforth vipers stopping production.

In regards to general sales- I am a car dealer so unlike other people on the board I can relate an anecdote that should clarify some stuff:


In mazda land, my stores sell about 4000 cars a year. Everyone knows the miata and how popular it is, correct? Well in 2014 Mazda Miata sales were 400 or so. FOR THE ENTIRE COUNTRY. Let that settle in and i can give a reason:

A miata is a miata. The car has been mostly the same in ethos and execution for 20 years. So- a miata guy keeps his miata because the delta from a 1999 and a 2006 and a 2014 is negligible. They all handle like fun and squishy go karts. Low HP, low lbs is the same the entire time. Only difference is creature comforts...oh wait the miata is spartan. There was no reason to buy a new one or trade yours in. Guys just keep modding and modding and wrenching on them and never flip them.

Now with new miata, there is a buzz. It looks way sexier, is lighter than previous, but since it retains the essential elements of previous gens- it drives very similar (speed, G load etc) but because it is prettier and lighter than outgoing...it will sell.

Okay back to viper- well they're all the same. So regular viper dude already bought one a few years back and drives it on weekends. The ACR versions have always killed every other car and dollar for dollar are the closest to an actual race car of any showroom car.

It's not the car for chores. Or errands. It's the Conan the Barbarian of track weapons. Bigger muscles, mullet (aero), and a lot of one liners. This is a car for a guy like me who already has a GT3 or RS (i've owned 4 of them and driven them all 996-991RS). Granted I drive it to chuckwalla (3 hrs away) Buttonwillow (2.5hrs) etc but this is a road legal race car. I drive with the diffuser and chin spoiler and have caught air while hitting a freeway dip at 75mph at 6am. It is tolerable but to say the seats are uncomfortable or torturous is funny. The pedals are electrically adjustable. The dead pedal is adjustable. THE WHOLE CAR IS ADJUSTABLE.

It is not a lithe flickable car like my NSX.
It is not as complete of a car as the GT3 RS but for that matter- the 675LT is better than EVERY other car I have ever driven.

There is always something more slick or more refined- all of these cars are a compromise.

Gt4- amazing value. 100k ish.
acr- amazing vale. 130k ish.

Both are manuals, fun, etc. but acr is 5+ seconds faster per lap. And similar prices, running costs etc.

GT3RS 200k (lol) - gorgeous but has lots of gizmos. Lots of RL wanted manual trans.

As I have said for 150k the 991 GT3 is a great deal. Great combo car. Probably safest to own financially with the most second hand buyers in segment.

But if someone puts gun to your head and says "spend 300k on car stuff" and you do 15+ track days a year, the ACR and GT4 make a great combo, very yin and yang and save a lot of money.

If you are in market and looking at
GT4,
991Gt3,
ACR,
ZO6,
Mclaren,
Ferrari,
Huracan...

You will end up with a fun car. If you have enough cash you will get a few of them. My analogy is that just because you like sushi does not mean you hate burritos, pasta etc. you can like multiple things. If you only have financial room for one car in your life, then you should get the cheapest option. If you have lots of money and lots of space, the best car is the 675LT. GT4 is second most essential because its all about fun. Next car if you afford it is ACR but don't buy unless you like the edge/rush of track driving. It exists just for that. The 991Gt3 is 98% of the performer of the 991RS. For me the 488 is of questionable provenance. The huracan is one light year ahead of the ferrari 458 but neither compares to the speciale and that car is slower, heavier and worse handling than 675LT.

Best exotic: 675
Best budget or toy canyon combo car: GT4/ boxster spyder
Best track car: ACR
Best platform for modding- 991GT3
Best interior: Huracan
Fastest: 675
Best noises: speciale/ GT3RS tie
Best brakes: ACR
Best manual gearbox: GT4
Best paddles: 675LT

Worst dealer experience/ hardest to acquire: GT3RS/ Ferrari tie
Best seat: 675LT
Most flexible/ least sensitive to mileage: GT3/RS
Most raw/ driver controlled: ACR
Least Raw/ most computers: Huracan
Scariest: 675LT/ Viper tie
Friendliest: Gt4/ boxster spyder

fbirch

Maybe he'll post another video - the gift that keeps giving!

C.J. Ichiban

+1 i've got both. Love both.

ipse dixit

Are you sure? At least according to published reports, sales for the Miata in 2014 were closer to 4000 (or about 4700).

But going back to the Viper and sales, and the fact that there's no reason to upgrade to a newer model, isn't that part of the problem?

Part of the job of a car marque is to sell cars and to create, maintain and enlarge market share. 2 out of 3 is good for baseball, but not so much for car manufacturing and sales me thinks.

Keith Verges - Dallas

What is funny is I have a 2016 Miata in hand and ACR Extreme on order. The former is my first street Miata (I've owned probably 10 race and track Miatae and come to respect the platform) and I bought it in large part due to the ethos CJ describes; it's some 1000 lbs lighter than my GT3 and a real gem and of course an open car.

I eagerly await the ACR and am confident it will be a quantum leap faster than my GT3 and more of a challenge to extract performance from. But that's the fun

eurotom

All I heard was "God Bless America" I'm proud of what they've accomplished. Very impressive and great vid up until the point when they left Laguna. The other two guys ruined it.

eurotom

Amen well said!

997rs4.0

You are right!

Porsche has got it right, If it's about sales? RS was never about sales. It was about making enough cars to be allowed to race with them.

They hit the jackpot with the 991gt3. RS will be the same. They will make many. Because it's good and it's very capable both on track and street.

991TTS

I am curious why you ask this question? Seems odd, or more specifically it seems something a corvette owner would ask? Did someone ever imply it was the best compromise of daily driver and track car? Nope, not a single person on this thread. But then you ask about sales figures. Do you feel a camry is a better car than a 911? If you are into annual sales #'s, you Must believe that to be true... You must also then believe the Vette is a better car because it sells more as well...

I think you already stated you have not driven one. You then make the statement of Viper (any version), but yet you don't understand how different they are. I understand why you would have no experience with the ACR, they are new and just out after all, but if you have no experience with it, why the pretense of acting like you have a serious question when you don't?

Maybe you don't value or understand the primary purpose of this particular car. But that seems odd to me when you are posting on the GT3/RS forum which is Porsche's most track oriented 911's on the market right now.

So, do you really have a question or are you trying to make some sort of statement?