New PCCB and Track days – Facts Feedback Thread
03-19-2016, 06:55 PM
#346
Burning Brakes
This is a great thread with tons of good information. For those of you posting numbers and mileage, how do the numbers compare in general to if you had cast iron rotors. I know it's hard to make an apples to apples comparison without the same exact car, but in general. After how many miles were you changing out the cast iron rotors compared to your CCBs.
I've never tracked before and would like to with the next car. I know the PCCB option will be a tough decision.
Also, has anyone had freak accidents with chipping of the rotors from debris?
I've never tracked before and would like to with the next car. I know the PCCB option will be a tough decision.
Also, has anyone had freak accidents with chipping of the rotors from debris?
03-19-2016, 08:36 PM
#347
Just ran 400 miles at Sebring last weekend bringing total track miles to 1,980 and total miles to 14,000; will have rotors tested again when I have a service. Changed my brake pads at 7 mm (2 mm is the official wear limit) to move heat out of the rotors through the pad. No visual defects, no freak damage from stones, etc. although the barrels of my wheels are badly scored due to the small clearance between the calipers and the wheel.
Brakes feel absolutely great on a track like Sebring where I hit 140 mph plus in three places, and 120 mph in a few others. But I have no comparison to cast iron rotors or even track pads -- my PCCBs are 100% stock.
Brakes feel absolutely great on a track like Sebring where I hit 140 mph plus in three places, and 120 mph in a few others. But I have no comparison to cast iron rotors or even track pads -- my PCCBs are 100% stock.
03-19-2016, 10:49 PM
#348
Ok, after some back in forth with Pagid here's some input. The RSC2 will be harder on the disc than the RSC1 as a result of the higher forces and temps that pad can generate. The RSC2 will give longer pad life but keep in mind that disc wear is best with the fastest wearing pad as the pad is the sacrificial item in the system. Any pad operated at the limit of it's temperature range will wear faster. Generally "cold" is ambient to 200C. "Regular" is 200-600C. Hot >650C. Thats rotor core temperature. No matter what, the faster you want to stop, the more heat is going to be generated in a given period of time. We don't have any info on the stock pads but they're likely designed to work well between 400-500C. Above that temperature almost any OEM compound will be outside it's operating temp. and will have fade and accelerated wear.
One note regarding using the 1 to 10 scale. It’s not so much a measurement of any particular number, think of it more as a “worst” to “best” scale if you will. Tough to give one number that represents a moving target…
- Pad wear for example will increase with increasing temperature. @650 it may be a “9”. @ 750 ~ “8” , 850 ~ “2” (I’m exaggerating, but you get the point).
- RSC2 doesn’t wear 30% better than RSC1 or RSC3. It’s not 20% better, but it is noticeably better. It also wears the disc faster as a result of the harder (longer wearing) pad material.
One note regarding using the 1 to 10 scale. It’s not so much a measurement of any particular number, think of it more as a “worst” to “best” scale if you will. Tough to give one number that represents a moving target…
- Pad wear for example will increase with increasing temperature. @650 it may be a “9”. @ 750 ~ “8” , 850 ~ “2” (I’m exaggerating, but you get the point).
- RSC2 doesn’t wear 30% better than RSC1 or RSC3. It’s not 20% better, but it is noticeably better. It also wears the disc faster as a result of the harder (longer wearing) pad material.
03-20-2016, 09:27 AM
#349
Updating table with the following changes
1. Reduced assumed PCCB life from 47 to 40 track days.
2. Increased assumed Iron rotor life from 20 to 30 days
3. Added option 1a assuming refurb Sicom option is viable
4. Updated estimated Sicom refurb cost
5. Reduced estimated Cycle 2+ Iron cost to show Disc cost only
6. Added new section estimating rotor cost per 10 day increments from 10-80 track days.
Given the assumptions made, the Iron rotor option is still the lowest cost alternative though the Sicom option moves the PCCBs close enough that I think many of us would go that route provided the refurbishing process delivers acceptable performance. It will be great to learn more about the viability of refurbishing.
1. Reduced assumed PCCB life from 47 to 40 track days.
2. Increased assumed Iron rotor life from 20 to 30 days
3. Added option 1a assuming refurb Sicom option is viable
4. Updated estimated Sicom refurb cost
5. Reduced estimated Cycle 2+ Iron cost to show Disc cost only
6. Added new section estimating rotor cost per 10 day increments from 10-80 track days.
Given the assumptions made, the Iron rotor option is still the lowest cost alternative though the Sicom option moves the PCCBs close enough that I think many of us would go that route provided the refurbishing process delivers acceptable performance. It will be great to learn more about the viability of refurbishing.
However column 3 and 4 major errors.
AP Racing cast iron front 1800usd, rear 1800usd. Complete rotors with hubs.
Then you replace the rings only, which is roughly 480usd per corner.
You don't replace front and rears each time. I would say the proportion is 2:1 or even 3:1
Basically after second replacement you break even and later the cost is 960usd vs 1300usd per axis. AP Racing last also longer than OEM. (From what I read)
I wouldn't include labor as it's easy to DIY.
03-24-2016, 09:20 PM
#350
Former Vendor
Updating table with the following changes
1. Reduced assumed PCCB life from 47 to 40 track days.
2. Increased assumed Iron rotor life from 20 to 30 days
3. Added option 1a assuming refurb Sicom option is viable
4. Updated estimated Sicom refurb cost
5. Reduced estimated Cycle 2+ Iron cost to show Disc cost only
6. Added new section estimating rotor cost per 10 day increments from 10-80 track days.
Given the assumptions made, the Iron rotor option is still the lowest cost alternative though the Sicom option moves the PCCBs close enough that I think many of us would go that route provided the refurbishing process delivers acceptable performance. It will be great to learn more about the viability of refurbishing.
1. Reduced assumed PCCB life from 47 to 40 track days.
2. Increased assumed Iron rotor life from 20 to 30 days
3. Added option 1a assuming refurb Sicom option is viable
4. Updated estimated Sicom refurb cost
5. Reduced estimated Cycle 2+ Iron cost to show Disc cost only
6. Added new section estimating rotor cost per 10 day increments from 10-80 track days.
Given the assumptions made, the Iron rotor option is still the lowest cost alternative though the Sicom option moves the PCCBs close enough that I think many of us would go that route provided the refurbishing process delivers acceptable performance. It will be great to learn more about the viability of refurbishing.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...r-991-gt3.html
Calipers - You get our 6 pot front and 4 pot calipers that are built for track duty with open top for easy pad change.
Brake pads - Our calipers use the same pads as for ZR1 and Z28, so the pricing and availability is better than Porsche dealers.
Same RB-CCM kits are offered for 997, 996, and 993 so we expect this kit shall become the default track kit for Porsche.
04-30-2016, 11:46 AM
#351
After 14,750 total miles and almost 2,100 track miles I decided to switch to the 380 mm OEM cast iron brakes -- the cost, including labor and all OEM components including the red calipers, was less than the cost of two ceramic front rotors.
After we removed the PCCBs from the car, we did a very thorough check of all components and carefully read the carbon density -- the results surprised me and are not entirely consistent with other posts on this thread -- essentially the front rotors had 80% remaining life and the rears had about 85%. Admittedly I am not hard are the brakes and take care to cool them after every track session, and about 2/3s of the track miles were at Lime Rock which is not particularly hard on beds (in my opinion). The car is a 2015 GT3.
After we removed the PCCBs from the car, we did a very thorough check of all components and carefully read the carbon density -- the results surprised me and are not entirely consistent with other posts on this thread -- essentially the front rotors had 80% remaining life and the rears had about 85%. Admittedly I am not hard are the brakes and take care to cool them after every track session, and about 2/3s of the track miles were at Lime Rock which is not particularly hard on beds (in my opinion). The car is a 2015 GT3.
04-30-2016, 12:37 PM
#353
I have been checking them every 500 track miles or so -- I plan to track this car for several years so I thought I would play it safe, many of the posts on this thread would indicate higher wear and I don't know if once you get to a certain percentage if the wear doesn't accelerate.
I must admit after my last two days at Sebring, I was expecting more wear from my previous reading -- more like 60% because I had over 400 miles of relatively hard braking there.
I must admit after my last two days at Sebring, I was expecting more wear from my previous reading -- more like 60% because I had over 400 miles of relatively hard braking there.
Last edited by NMM991; 05-01-2016 at 11:35 AM.
04-30-2016, 06:42 PM
#356
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Great intel NMM, it will mostlikely help others make a smarter decision.
Level of driving (how hard you brake) and type of circuit obviously have a huge impact on wear. Previous car before the GT3 was a momentum type of car (SC Lotus). I think I'm probably easier on brakes than many others here... PCCB was maybe a good fit for me/my driving style.
Too late now! After changing my mind about 10 times, I went Iron for my new car.
My order is now on V210 status (locked), cant change my mind anymore!
I loved the PCCB brakes. Really. I was worried all the time about wear or about a simple accident/scratch while changing wheels though. This is why I went Iron this time.
I'll compare and report back next summer (PCCB vs Iron) but the car will also make a difference... I hope!
Level of driving (how hard you brake) and type of circuit obviously have a huge impact on wear. Previous car before the GT3 was a momentum type of car (SC Lotus). I think I'm probably easier on brakes than many others here... PCCB was maybe a good fit for me/my driving style.
Too late now! After changing my mind about 10 times, I went Iron for my new car.
My order is now on V210 status (locked), cant change my mind anymore!
I loved the PCCB brakes. Really. I was worried all the time about wear or about a simple accident/scratch while changing wheels though. This is why I went Iron this time.
I'll compare and report back next summer (PCCB vs Iron) but the car will also make a difference... I hope!
04-30-2016, 07:08 PM
#357
Three Wheelin'
One other BIG plus of PCCB. After tracking different cars for 20 years, there's a LOT to be said for not swapping pads for every event. With PCCB, just go haul *** and drive home.
05-01-2016, 10:39 AM
#358
Also, if the rotors are only 15-20% worn, why did you decide to replace them?
05-01-2016, 11:42 AM
#359
Based upon my wear through about 1,200 track miles, I was anticipating that the life remaining on the fronts would be closer to 60% as I had put on another 800-900 track miles, 400 of which were at Sebring where there is a lot of hard braking. I plan to continue tracking this car 2 - 3,000 miles a year and made the decision to save the ceramics for when I sold the car.
The third generation ceramics are much better than the prior generations. A speed shop that I trust was anticipating much faster wear based on prior history and encouraged me to switch to steel brakes -- if I had known that I still had 80% to 85% life front to rear, I would probably have put another 1,000 to 1,500 miles on the ceramics before switching.
05-01-2016, 12:32 PM
#360
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
NMM,
Please post your feedback after the switch...
Same car, same circuit, same driver...
I'm curious to find out if you notice a big difference or not.
Thanks!
Please post your feedback after the switch...
Same car, same circuit, same driver...
I'm curious to find out if you notice a big difference or not.
Thanks!