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6000 km restriction on the RS for European Delivery...why?
Originally Posted by TRAKCAR
My car goes V300 (Vehicle completed) September 4th. I just e-mailed Jamie at ED to see if I can get the pickup date moved earlier. I can ask right? :-)
Reter: I got your pm re: European Delivery. Since it's a subject that perhaps others have experience with on this forum, I think it's worthy of discussing it in public. I have edited your message to show the relevant parts.
Reter in 'black': My responses in 'red'.
Originally Posted by TRAKCAR
Hi Eduardo, You are going to need a vacation from your vacation LOL! Thanks for all the writing about your trip
Thank you for your note!
Maybe you know something about European Delivery;
I have done two at Porsche...but the last one was in the mid 1980's so my information is dated. I have, however, done 3 BWW European deliveries in more recent times. The last one being a 650iVert in the fall of 2006.
I have been reading others doing European Delivery and noticed some drove it (way) over 6000Km's on several forums. Awesome
I have asked for 3 months insurance but was surprised that when the paperwork from Porsche says I'm limited to 6000Km. I'm planning track days and plenty of Alpen pass runs and plan to exceed the KM's..
According to Porsches writing (Jamie) 6000Km and 6 months is the limit to get VAT refunded. The 6 months are described everywhere when you Google it; BMW, AUDI, MERCEDES, PORSCHE all mentioned 6 months. No mention of maximum export Km's anywhere? I mean nowhere at all.
You could do up to 1 year previously and the auto manufacturer (especially BMW) would write up insurance & registration up to that 12 months. I believe that time has now been restricted by German authorities to 6 month maximum. We all used to get 4 weeks of registration & insurance with European Delivery at Porsche, BMW & MB. But most ED users were NOT using up their 4 weeks of coverage and the auto companies felt they were wasting money on the full 4 weeks of expensive registration & insurance. So almost all have restricted the standard registration & insurance to just 14 days. If you need more, it's optional but you pay extra for whatever additional time you need...up to 6 months at least in the case with BMW & MB. Hardly anyone asks for it a Porsche, so I don't know if they have a deal with their insurance company to provide this extended coverage if requested.
No mention by any manufacturer regarding KM limit in relation to the VAT refund, but its on the paperwork? From whatever I can find online Germany just cares that the car gets exported within 6 months. There is some text that cars over 6000KM are used cars but that is assuming you buy it with 6000KM + and we're clearly buying the car factory new with plenty of paperwork to prove it.
I have a feeling that Porsche prefers you drive less than 6000KM for some reason. You and I can't be the only one driving more than 6000 KM's in the 3 or even 6 months optional European delivery duration.
The 6000 km restriction might be imposed by the insurance provider on just the 991 gt3 RS. They might not want to insure for the liability beyond certain km. And Porsche has agreed to it as part of the package they negotiated with the insurance company for just the RS for European Delivery program. They know that 6000km limit will restrict your time driving around Europe on this RS...and thus lessen their liability of damages & accidents on this particular model. It's not just the price of the RS since many 911 Turbo S models are that expensive too. But the attraction of the RS wing, etc. tends to draw perhaps too much 'attention' of both the good type ...and the bad kind. And insurance companies are naturally 'prudent', so that could be the reason for the restriction on KM!
In general, km restrictions defeat one of the most advantageous benefits to Germany of European Delivery. The program was started in the 1950's to promote German auto exports, tourism and 'public relations'. Remember this was just after WWII and West Germany wanted to improve its image as a democratic republic with total allegiance to NATO & its allies in North America. The government subsidized the program because of its obvious benefits to the country. Overall, it was a great success - especially in the 1950's and early 1960's. And it was considered a successful part of 'Wirtschaftswunder', for which West Germany became famous for!
Today, it's different. I don't really know if the government is still subsidizing the program, although if you see how aggressive BMW pricing is for ED you would think 'YES'. PR is no longer an issue after the end of the 'Cold War', but auto exports & tourism are still an important part of the ED program as a benefit to Germany.
So km limitations by an auto manufacturer on ED is rare...and counter-productive to its overall goals of encouraging ED & tourism. So this km restriction, I believe, might be limited to certain specific models due to insurance company concerns. My dos centavos...for what is worth.
Have you, or do you know of others who exceeded the 6000Km?
Yes. And perhaps other Rennlisters can chime in with their ED experiences, although just one we know of (Valex20) has done it on an 991 gt3 RS! JUPJAI recently did ED with a very expensive 911 Turbo S Cabriolet and he might have something to say too!
I think Porsche's limit will not be enforced as long as the car comes to the US within 6 months..
Be careful. If it's a limitation imposed by the insurance companies, you don't want to find out that your coverage ENDED after you passed 6001 KM on your new (& expensive) 991 gt3 RS while in Europe!
Kind regards,
Peter
Good luck with your upcoming ED on the RS. I am jealous!
PS If any others are interested in more information of the history of ED in the German auto industry, I have written some post in the past on the subject. Here is one from 2006 in Bimmerfest (note the Porsche ED plan was different on that date and Audi added a ED plan just after this):
"From my many conversations with old timers in Porsche 356 circles, I have concluded that the impetus for the European Delivery Programs (as we now know them) developed within West German economic planners that were desperately trying to come up with new ways to help West German economic recovery after WWII. Not only did West Germany needed to find new overseas clients for its re-emerging auto industry, but Germans needed to encourage international travel to the homeland. Of course, the principal purpose for the latter was reaping the financial benefits of tourism. Foreigners needed to know that West Germany was no longer 'bombed out" and in ruins. They were rebuilding a flourishing tourism industry to compete with those of France, Italy and Britain for the traveling (mainly North & South American at the time) tourists. But equally important, Germans hoped that the inter-action with foreigners would help transform its international 'political' reputation after the bad press generated by the war & its 'ancien' regime. You remember the guy with the funny mustache, no? By the mid-fities, West Germany had established a thriving democracy and the government was anxious to have that fact known and experienced by as many foreigners as possible, especially Americans who held the reins of political power and wealth after WWII. As a result, the West German government gave its auto manufacturers a direct monetary incentive (perhaps via corporate tax savings) for each German car sold and delivered to a foreigner in Germany. The ED program was a great success and became part of the myth now known as the German Economic Miracle, the successful era of Chancellor Konrad Adenauer and his savvy Economic Minister at the time, Ludwig Erhard. In the early days, no auto maker made better use of marketing the benefits & savings of the European Delivery Program than tiny Porsche. The Porsche Club of America, with Max Hoffman's help (he was the US importer), was putting together 'Treffens' in the late fifties that organized Euro deliveries for Americans...fifty and more 356s at a time! Within a short time, Mercedes and others came up to speed quickly.
As the German car industry matured & prospered, and the peaceful & democratic reputation of West Germany was established in the world beyond reproach, the favorable tax treatments were no longer needed or necessary. When and how they were changed, reduced, or modified, I really do not know. But they are no longer the same. I have done five EDs in my lifetime (two Porsches and three BMWs) and each time I have thought (and thanked) the foresight of these German economic planners from the mid-fifties. Not only has it encouraged me to purchase German automotive machinery more often, but it has also allowed me to get to know and appreciate the many positive qualities of the German people. In addition, I have had many opportunities to experienced the beautiful landscape, architecture, food, beer & wine of the German nation. Sadly today, early ED pioneer Porsche has seen fit to give us a financial disincentive for Euro Delivery in Zuffenhausen. No savings. In fact, it cost much more. Shame on them and their shortsightedness. We appreciate BMW and Mercedes continuing with this great program, no matter what support (or not) it now gets from the German government, and encourage Audi to follow suit."
Its not insurance related; Its VAT refund related.
But that seems pretty unbelievable as I can get VAT back on any car (Or anything else) I export out of Europe in 6 months?
The latest I heard was that they couldn't even say when they would be able to give us a date...
I saw the twin brother of your car today at my local dealership! Looks absolutely sick in UV with silver wheels and uprights. Congrats on a great spec!
Thanks Eduardo,
Its not insurance related; Its VAT refund related.
That is what Porsche via Jamie is telling you. My
assumption is that he is telling you a 'white lie' to
make the km restriction seem more acceptable to
US customers.
I still think it's insurance related and not VAT.
As soon as others chimed in with recent ED's
with Porsches that exceeded 6000 km, we will
know the rest of the story!
Originally Posted by dertub
I gotta have one of those planes with 3 tails someday. Maybe Porsche could make an RS wing like that? Wow!!!
Lockheed Constellation...by the folks that brought you the P-38 Lightning, also a Lockheed-designed aircraft.
You may able to get one of these at one of our plane graveyards in desert airstrips in Arizona or California:
And at least three Constellations are abandoned at the 'São Tomé e Príncipe' islands off the west coast of Africa:
That is what Porsche via Jamie is telling you. My assumption is that he is telling you a 'white lie' to make the km restriction seem more acceptable US customers.
I still think it's insurance related and not VAT.
As soon as others chimed in with recent ED's with Porsches that exceeded 6000 km, we will know the rest of the story!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Italia
I agree, but the VAT reason is mentioned in writing via e-mail and signed documentation. I included one link above from a Rennlister that exceeded the 6000KM, but it was 2012/13.
Online my Voodoo is scheduled to show V200 (production scheduled) on August 7th, let's see what happens to the three of us. If it gets pushed back from December to Spring 2016 I'm going to punch someone.
07-29-2015, 08:01 AM
6000 km restriction on the RS for European Delivery...why?
