Stop Sale?
03-18-2014, 12:13 AM
#2777
"Depreciation most definitely on those 2014's will be absolutely huge. I can see an easy instant 30-50k hit on the 14's. Easy. Not so sure what my "contact" meant that this was a supplier issue?? How did this not show up in their testing for 2 years and 100's of thousands of miles and then when it hit production all of a sudden it was an issue? As this is still playing out I would be ok with a car 1 year from now or an RS...... but its pretty risky taking one these with an relatively untested "supplier" parts."
Oh boy...yeah the 2014 991gt3 with full warranty, probably crazy extended power train warranty after this, will now sell for 100k.
What are you smoking?
Oh boy...yeah the 2014 991gt3 with full warranty, probably crazy extended power train warranty after this, will now sell for 100k.
What are you smoking?
03-18-2014, 12:16 AM
#2778
Rennlist Member
Porsche rarely lets a dealer rebuild an engine. It's not cost effective at all. Besides that, most mechanics today are "Parts Changers". They're good at that.
When the 996's ate an intermediate shaft under warranty you got a new engine. If it was making noise (or about to give up the ghost) you got a new engine.
Rod bolts on SC's from '78-'83 were better than what came in the 3.2 and if you tracked one it was generally advisable to change them to beefier units.
The SC was an animal of an engine.
Anybody ever suffer broken head studs? SC's and Carreras are known to pop studs. Seen a few lower valve covers dropped for an adjustment only to find a couple of studs hanging free. Bad feeling.
FWIW: I took down a factory built 2.0 race engine in January. It had Ti rods, boat-tailed mains, 906 cams, 906 pistons and extremely rare Chromasil cylinders which are chrome plated aluminum and featherweight.
EVERY STUD in this engine was broken. This was a factory build and had the best of the best with respect to parts and it still broke. (906 and 911R parts)
As for the bolts in the 991GT3; any manufacturer can screw the pooch on a batch of parts. That Porsche didn't catch it until it was too late is a shame.
If it was a con-rod issue we would have all seen a bunch of lunched motors before they even let them go to the public. An improperly torqued bolt is a problem. The stuff is automated and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that an automatic torque setting on a bolt could represent a problem if the adjustment or procedure isn't followed to a "T".
Harley Davidson had a similar issue on the camshafts when they introduced the Twin Cam engine. It was a lubrication issue on the bolts which threw off the torque settings.
When the 996's ate an intermediate shaft under warranty you got a new engine. If it was making noise (or about to give up the ghost) you got a new engine.
Rod bolts on SC's from '78-'83 were better than what came in the 3.2 and if you tracked one it was generally advisable to change them to beefier units.
The SC was an animal of an engine.
Anybody ever suffer broken head studs? SC's and Carreras are known to pop studs. Seen a few lower valve covers dropped for an adjustment only to find a couple of studs hanging free. Bad feeling.
FWIW: I took down a factory built 2.0 race engine in January. It had Ti rods, boat-tailed mains, 906 cams, 906 pistons and extremely rare Chromasil cylinders which are chrome plated aluminum and featherweight.
EVERY STUD in this engine was broken. This was a factory build and had the best of the best with respect to parts and it still broke. (906 and 911R parts)
As for the bolts in the 991GT3; any manufacturer can screw the pooch on a batch of parts. That Porsche didn't catch it until it was too late is a shame.
If it was a con-rod issue we would have all seen a bunch of lunched motors before they even let them go to the public. An improperly torqued bolt is a problem. The stuff is automated and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that an automatic torque setting on a bolt could represent a problem if the adjustment or procedure isn't followed to a "T".
Harley Davidson had a similar issue on the camshafts when they introduced the Twin Cam engine. It was a lubrication issue on the bolts which threw off the torque settings.
There has been, and continues to be, a lot of speculation here. I can certainly understand the angst and frustration. I'm not sure how I would feel if I had one of these cars coming, or had to give it back after taking delivery, but I guess I've seen how quite a few have—and they run the gamut.
Best wishes to those affected,
pete
03-18-2014, 01:45 AM
#2781
Rennlist Member
Need to ask. With every generation of gt3's has been runned on the old mezger plus mt- why the change the change to new motor/pdk tranny? Why the change? Mike
03-18-2014, 01:55 AM
#2783
Rennlist Member
Because the for some reason Ferrari/Lambo are just used to having fire issues...and the public knows about it and has been oddly acceptant of it. Porsche...until now was NEVER been associated with this unfortunate stigma this incredibly poorly handled incident aside...but the question is...did this incident cause enough harm to really taint the brand image? I'm still up in the air with this.
03-18-2014, 02:14 AM
#2784
Because the for some reason Ferrari/Lambo are just used to having fire issues...and the public knows about it and has been oddly acceptant of it. Porsche...until now was NEVER been associated with this unfortunate stigma this incredibly poorly handled incident aside...but the question is...did this incident cause enough harm to really taint the brand image? I'm still up in the air with this.
03-18-2014, 02:15 AM
#2785
Rennlist Member
How much were talking about costwise between 9a1 gt3 motor/PDK tranny vs tried/true mezger motor/mt? Someone mentioned $20k plus profit per gt3 sold under vw ownership- so 15k more u think? Mike
03-18-2014, 02:16 AM
#2786
Rennlist Member
yep, some other 458s also had serious engine issues that owners could choose to take in and get fixed immediately or keep driving and fix when needed...talk about ironic...
03-18-2014, 02:23 AM
#2787
Instructor
I ordered a 458 in 2010. The fire problem was fixed very quickly and there were no delays in production. It isn't comparable with the GT3 situation.
03-18-2014, 02:26 AM
#2788
I'm not sure you can compare Ferrari with Porsche. Historically, two different buyers, two different brands & images. Ferrari's burning never resulted in buyers backing down. They're a status symbol above all else. No offense to Fiat owners on the board
My question regarding the 991gt3 is something else. So, a new engine will be swapped in, which is good, and will probably make a teeny bit more power knowing Porsche. But, what about all the other niggles and nags? The thermostats? The cam sensors? The other things that haven't come up?
I would suggest to those that have an opportunity to get their money back on a 2014 car to do so, and immediately order a 2015 car. Really it will amount to a 6 month break but you will get a new car with no stories.
For those comparing a 991gt3 engine swap to one from a 997gt3, I would say that an engine failure on a 997 is considered the EXCEPTION, not the rule. The MEzger is a proven race engine that has won countless races. The new block is unproven, and less than 6 months off the line has been immediately recalled. That resonates strongly with many, including myself - I will never call the Mezger unreliable despite more known failures than I can count, simply because the sheer mountain of success is there.
Now, I know its only 2 cars and only 2 known failures and the rest is all "abundance of caution", but perception is reality and the future may hold 0 new failures or many.
Porsche really should have raced this engine. They would have been celebrating discovering this problem rather than embarrassing themselves like this. If nothing else, if they have one $*(&#$()@*&)(-ing takeaway from this whole mess, is that when you build a GT car, when you sell a motorsports pedigree, you actually take the motorsports part seriously.
My question regarding the 991gt3 is something else. So, a new engine will be swapped in, which is good, and will probably make a teeny bit more power knowing Porsche. But, what about all the other niggles and nags? The thermostats? The cam sensors? The other things that haven't come up?
I would suggest to those that have an opportunity to get their money back on a 2014 car to do so, and immediately order a 2015 car. Really it will amount to a 6 month break but you will get a new car with no stories.
For those comparing a 991gt3 engine swap to one from a 997gt3, I would say that an engine failure on a 997 is considered the EXCEPTION, not the rule. The MEzger is a proven race engine that has won countless races. The new block is unproven, and less than 6 months off the line has been immediately recalled. That resonates strongly with many, including myself - I will never call the Mezger unreliable despite more known failures than I can count, simply because the sheer mountain of success is there.
Now, I know its only 2 cars and only 2 known failures and the rest is all "abundance of caution", but perception is reality and the future may hold 0 new failures or many.
Porsche really should have raced this engine. They would have been celebrating discovering this problem rather than embarrassing themselves like this. If nothing else, if they have one $*(&#$()@*&)(-ing takeaway from this whole mess, is that when you build a GT car, when you sell a motorsports pedigree, you actually take the motorsports part seriously.
03-18-2014, 02:42 AM
#2789
Rennlist Member
When u guys actually believe that bs what pag said- yeah Ferrari went thru the fires and u chastise it and now the 991 gt3 went thru that whereas every previous gen gt3 with tried/true mezger hasnt got a major recall due to FIRE- what's your reasoning behind standing by this brand- I don't get it? Why stand up and support how PAG dealt with this and u guys actually fall for it? I take my full refund and sit it out.
You guys who own it will be waiting several months and still no guarantees if it expires after engine swap. What about those owners who never track there cars after the engine swap never has an issue but you track the car and it grenades on u. You have confidence PAG will pull thru for u? Mike
You guys who own it will be waiting several months and still no guarantees if it expires after engine swap. What about those owners who never track there cars after the engine swap never has an issue but you track the car and it grenades on u. You have confidence PAG will pull thru for u? Mike
03-18-2014, 02:48 AM
#2790
Rennlist Member
I'm not sure you can compare Ferrari with Porsche. Historically, two different buyers, two different brands & images. Ferrari's burning never resulted in buyers backing down. They're a status symbol above all else. No offense to Fiat owners on the board
My question regarding the 991gt3 is something else. So, a new engine will be swapped in, which is good, and will probably make a teeny bit more power knowing Porsche. But, what about all the other niggles and nags? The thermostats? The cam sensors? The other things that haven't come up?
I would suggest to those that have an opportunity to get their money back on a 2014 car to do so, and immediately order a 2015 car. Really it will amount to a 6 month break but you will get a new car with no stories.
For those comparing a 991gt3 engine swap to one from a 997gt3, I would say that an engine failure on a 997 is considered the EXCEPTION, not the rule. The MEzger is a proven race engine that has won countless races. The new block is unproven, and less than 6 months off the line has been immediately recalled. That resonates strongly with many, including myself - I will never call the Mezger unreliable despite more known failures than I can count, simply because the sheer mountain of success is there.
Now, I know its only 2 cars and only 2 known failures and the rest is all "abundance of caution", but perception is reality and the future may hold 0 new failures or many.
Porsche really should have raced this engine. They would have been celebrating discovering this problem rather than embarrassing themselves like this. If nothing else, if they have one $*(&#$()@*&)(-ing takeaway from this whole mess, is that when you build a GT car, when you sell a motorsports pedigree, you actually take the motorsports part seriously.
My question regarding the 991gt3 is something else. So, a new engine will be swapped in, which is good, and will probably make a teeny bit more power knowing Porsche. But, what about all the other niggles and nags? The thermostats? The cam sensors? The other things that haven't come up?
I would suggest to those that have an opportunity to get their money back on a 2014 car to do so, and immediately order a 2015 car. Really it will amount to a 6 month break but you will get a new car with no stories.
For those comparing a 991gt3 engine swap to one from a 997gt3, I would say that an engine failure on a 997 is considered the EXCEPTION, not the rule. The MEzger is a proven race engine that has won countless races. The new block is unproven, and less than 6 months off the line has been immediately recalled. That resonates strongly with many, including myself - I will never call the Mezger unreliable despite more known failures than I can count, simply because the sheer mountain of success is there.
Now, I know its only 2 cars and only 2 known failures and the rest is all "abundance of caution", but perception is reality and the future may hold 0 new failures or many.
Porsche really should have raced this engine. They would have been celebrating discovering this problem rather than embarrassing themselves like this. If nothing else, if they have one $*(&#$()@*&)(-ing takeaway from this whole mess, is that when you build a GT car, when you sell a motorsports pedigree, you actually take the motorsports part seriously.
Nothing worse than confirming durability issues when that is what is feared the most by the GT3 track junkie faithful.
The faithful who always believed a GT3 was a track weapon due to extensive racing testing, race on Sunday sell on Monday.
This after getting kicked in the nuts for taking the manual away is just begging the previously typical GT3 customer to go away.
Maybe we asked for too many warranty clutches and PP...