96redLT4

I wonder if Porsche watches these websites to gauge interest...
J

neanicu

John(911SLOW),which is one of the Admins here stated many times that Porsche is watching closely!
IMO,they'd be stupid not to watch!

GVA-SFO

..if they watch, they will hate me !
Well, I do not know how many of you, 911 drivers, have tried an MP4-12C ?
In my side, after 30 years non stop of 911 as daily, and after 50 minutes of driving an MP4-12C, ..when I was back in my car after that, I felt, that : my chassis was made with rubber, and the accelerator was not working anymore.

Beside that, another point that is for sure, on P cars, whatever model, the switch from "Comfort" to "Sport Plus" makes such a difference that you have to try 5 times, to get the feel of it.
In the McL, you have two switches : Power and Handling, each have 3 positions, normal, sport and track.
In normal-normal mode, I think, you can give the keys to grandma, to pick up groceries, but, in sport-sport, grandma will have tough chances to be out of the driveway and still safe !
"Playing" with these switches, ..is like moving from a Volkswagen 1200S to a Porsche 911.
Even going "mid way", makes a HUGE change in the behavior of the car.
The “Track-Track”, is simply (as it should be, btw !) not really doable on open roads.

OK, I admit, the $ equation looks like : 1x MP4-12C = 2x 991 4S ! (But with the switches, ..you have 3 real different cars !)

By the way, instead of "waiting" for a 960, I wonder what is the feel ..in driving a Ruf 3800 S
Sure, not the exact power level of 960 ..nor an MP4-12C, but, for about 130k$. ..it may be the “deal of the Century” ?
Anyway, driving a (sport) car with the engine in the right place, ..is definitively another story.

FastLaneTurbo

The McLaren / Porsche Gap is narrowing with several 2012s available on cars.com under $200K
http://www.cars.com/for-sale/used/mc...les&sf2Dir=ASC

Carrera GT

THAT is amazing! Amazingly amazing! Half a dozen sellers asking below $200K. 60 cars at dealers asking below $250K. I'm not interested in the 12C much at all, but if you'd asked me, I would have said their might (might) be 10 cars for sale on the secondary market. If someone had said zero cars, I would have been skeptical, but I'd have thought it wouldn't be out of the question. But a 100 cars on one site?! I see the local dealer with a couple of spares and strays, but I assumed that was the nature of a fickle, affluent buyer in Silicon Valley.

I guess there's two sides to this knife. First, Porsche has to be slack jawed stunned that McLaren has penetrated the would-be high end in such numbers. Ferrari is surely in a shock induced coma. Second, what's up with early adopters of the 12C? Is this an indicator of disappointment or is it a normal degree of turnover to the secondary market?

It won't be long before the market for the 12C will be in the price range of an RS 3.8 -- it's already at or below the RS 4.0 (give or take miles and condition.) I don't think the 12C is experiencing unprecedented depreciation, but surely McLaren must be troubled by this early lack of favor in the secondary market. Maybe it's just inevitable that those early cars are unloved in the market and buyers have the flexibility discretion to spend more to choose a newer example.

Personally, based on price, a 12C at $200K or a 458 at $250K is a no-brainer for me. Though I'm not enamored with the 458 design in some aspects, it's a brilliant car and the 12C is a yawn.

aussie jimmy

too much electronics in these cars is cause for massive depreciation.

Carrera GT

I doubt it's the electronics -- it's a car that's offered to an audience of people wanting technology. I surmise the car is unfulfilling and the people who've had their fill of it have dumped it with no upgrade path. Unless literally a few hundred early 12C buyers upgraded to the Spider. Hardly plausible, but anything's possible.

Without exception, every 458 driver (not owner, but the guys who drive the things) has said "go get one, you will not be disappointed, it's just that good" and these guys have had everything (599 GTO, RS 4.0, 430 Scuderia, GT3 Cup, open-wheel, formula cars, everything in-between) but in contrast, the 12C owners extol its virtues as an all-rounder and civilized, or they like its appearance or the dealer experience or the exclusivity and novelty of something that's not an Audi R8 or F430, etc.

I read that McLaren has a P13 model to target P cars. I think that's borderline suicidal. McLaren should be looking to niche and beachhead their way to Ferrari buyers sick of going to the F dealer and being treated like bitches, or upwardly mobile Gallardo owners who've come to regret the expensive Lambo body kit on their Audi's. Or level-headed Aventador buyers realizing that's a lot of money for an ostentatious machine with mediocre handling, a brutal single clutch box and equally violent depreciation. Going after Porsche is madness for McLaren. Who is the buyer? Someone who wish they paid $150K for a Cayman and lament not having an open diff, roast-a-brake stability and flappy paddles in a "poor man's" entry level model ... ? I don't see the strategy just yet. But whatever their game, don't go to Porsche's strength and expect anything but a drubbing. I think Corvette go can head to head with Porsche and meet them on their merits (heritage, pedigree, racing, performance) and trump them in the US market with Made in the USA (which I find compelling) and substantially cheaper to own and operate, but faster and without the rear-steer or the automatic gearbox, plus, you can always throw decent suspension at the Vette and it becomes a pure analog track car. (I just have to reinforce my denial of the mid-life crisis-mobile image of the Vette ... but hell, that applies to a 911 and I'm inured to the judgmental scowls of the soccer mums while I'm dropping off the kids in my role as a soccer dad with a 911.)

JohnnyBahamas

Oh, for crying out loud!

Months of working myself into the mood to write a check for an Audi R8 V10... with a MANUAL (screaming at Porsche HQ)... the LAST sports car I'm ever buying, I swear, and I'm getting it right this time.

I'm buying one more sports car, damn it, and it is going to have a MANUAL.

2017 or 2015? I can't wait much longer. I'm dying here. DYING.

Will they put a manual in it?

TRAKCAR

I think you just said it IS the electronics. Isn't that what makes it an all-rounder civilized and makes it a novelty? And creates the open diff, roast-a-brake stability and flappy paddles?

But I'm 100% on board with the thought proves.

No interest in the McLaren, I'll take bigger for daily driving and the 4.0 looks plenty midlife crisis as it is. Besides, I look hilarious even unfolding and prying myself out of the 4.0 so I park around the corner anyways, same place as I'll park the Corvette, E-diff and rev matching included.

TRAKCAR

The lighter, more powerfull, smaller R10 + = dancer
The GTR is yawn.

Carrera GT

I think the writing is on the wall that manual gearboxes aren't viable for even Porsche. Once the single clutch 7spd manual version of the PDK box sells poorly, Porsche will drop it completely.

Maybe they ran out of R&D to fortify that single clutch 7spd for the GT3, but I think they looked to accounting, not engineering, for guidance. Also, a manual box GT3 isn't going to be so spiffy as the "so many car lengths on every up-shift" of the PDK car. Any time a vendor can sell a "one size fits all" off the rack, and still charge for a tailored suit, they take the cash grab. Just look at the crap in department stores with Zegna or Armani labels. May as well dress yourself off the jumble sale tables at CostCo.

When all the "PDK only" brouhaha erupted last year, I was in the "never gonna happen" camp, which I think I conceded to the point of "initially in PDK" as a reasonable marketing gambit. But here we are. I'm still a bit nonplussed. I just can't imagine what they're thinking. It's just so far out of bounds, I can't comprehend how Porsche of all car companies would even contemplate a GT car without a third pedal at least as the standard fitment. By all means, make some PDK-only models of the Carrera, but the prospect of a GT3 RS in PDK only? Incomprehensible.

P_collector

Youre my hero - to anybody who opposes - tell me a car with massive electronics that went up in price again?

Look at 959 vs F40..- case closed

vf430

I don't think its the electronics overload that has caused massive depreciation of mp4. Italia is loaded with electronics too. Its the Turbo engine and boring looks that killed it compared to high rev NA motor producing Ferrari scream, Italia looks. I test drove mp4 Scud and 458. I ended up with Scud. But i have to say 458 is way more exciting and engaging than Mp4.

GVA-SFO

I also simply do not understand the presence of 60 MP4 already on the market !

I do not think it is the electronic.
The only thing I could foresee is the access : Entering into a MP4 is an exercise that is tougher than entering into a Elise (the pontoon is larger and may be higher). But, any male should get OK after some tries (except, ..may be in Scotland !).

Because, it is true that for a women, ..(with a skirt), it becomes another story.
In the middle of the desert, I see no problem, but getting in or out in a city, ..or in a small village, ..could lead to a lot Tweets !
In my case, my wife was very clear on it: “If you buy this car, you will be alone on it.” (Period, Done, Finish.)
Do I'm alone on this case ? May be some, ..bought first and then realize the "problem" after doing "a tour" with wife !!
This could explain the quantity of cars with low miles on the market !

GVA-SFO

About PDK, my feeling is that the "problem" has sources in the politic, not in the customer feedback and tastes !
Car manufacturers are under extremely tough pressures (taxes, fees, etc..) in different countries, v.s. the quantity of CO2 measured on "standard drive cycles”.

PDK and (many gears) is a super way to reduce CO2, as the computer (that change the gears) is programmed (in normal mode) to optimize (reduce) the CO2 to the max.
(I.e.: auto shut down the engine by default, start in 2nd, shift quickly gears up, keeping low rpm, low throttle, etc..)
So, the goal for Porsche to escape to these “misc. fees”, is to have the CO2 average of the entire production line going into a given country as low as possible.

I do not think there is any other major reason for PDK.

Now, IMO, this is going to kick back the company like a boomerang.
Driving a Porsche (I see that very well with the Panamera 4S that I have since 3 months and 5’000 miles) is for me extremely frustrating. I miss the stick shift big time.
..To a point, that I think, my next car could well be a Tesla.
(To not having to shift, let’s do it for real good.)
Another point is for sure too, I’m not going to buy/update to any new P4S with the 6 Turbo, no way Jose. Terminus.
(This will be like the old good Audi S4, when it moved from the v8, to the v6 turbo, I just do not like the later, that I got as courtesy car, ..just no fun & no good to my opinion.)
So to be back on PDK, it may enable to have Porsche in a low taxes/fees mode, ..but, in my opinion, it is a very vicious cycle, where “some “of the hard core P drivers, ..are going to live the boat !
..my 2 cents.