The 991 GT3/RS Cars For Sale Thread...
10-06-2023, 09:24 AM
#8731
Track history is a disqualifying factor for me on almost every car other than Porsche GT. Dual-clutch boxes do get sloppy over time, engines overheat or are routinely pushed into concerning territory, fluids boil, caliper internals disintegrate, diffs wear and break, reservoir seals fail, exhausts crack, and so on.
For those who don't have a history tracking 991/992 GT, taking them to extremes, it's just impossible to understand how robust and overengineered they are relative to everything else street based. Oil temp basically doesn't move. With fluid & pads, the braking system works identically, every time. Throttle response never changes. The cooling across the board is supreme. The pdk doesn’t flinch, flat upshifts and rev matching are always metronomic in the manual, the 4.0 revs with the same urgency on day lap 1 or lap 40. Etc.
Driver & tires are the only variable factors, both of which will quit before the car reaches a concerning level of mechanical stress. The mechanical limitations of the car are so beyond the avg track day driver, it's like a joke. Provided the accordant maintenance history is there -- increased oil change frequency, spark plugs, ignition coils, braking system -- no worries buying a tracked GT car from a mechanical perspective. Cosmetic, that's another matter. No mistaking my GT cars for garage queens.
For those who don't have a history tracking 991/992 GT, taking them to extremes, it's just impossible to understand how robust and overengineered they are relative to everything else street based. Oil temp basically doesn't move. With fluid & pads, the braking system works identically, every time. Throttle response never changes. The cooling across the board is supreme. The pdk doesn’t flinch, flat upshifts and rev matching are always metronomic in the manual, the 4.0 revs with the same urgency on day lap 1 or lap 40. Etc.
Driver & tires are the only variable factors, both of which will quit before the car reaches a concerning level of mechanical stress. The mechanical limitations of the car are so beyond the avg track day driver, it's like a joke. Provided the accordant maintenance history is there -- increased oil change frequency, spark plugs, ignition coils, braking system -- no worries buying a tracked GT car from a mechanical perspective. Cosmetic, that's another matter. No mistaking my GT cars for garage queens.
10-06-2023, 09:49 AM
#8732
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Track history is a disqualifying factor for me on almost every car other than Porsche GT. Dual-clutch boxes do get sloppy over time, engines overheat or are routinely pushed into concerning territory, fluids boil, caliper internals disintegrate, diffs wear and break, reservoir seals fail, exhausts crack, and so on.
For those who don't have a history tracking 991/992 GT, taking them to extremes, it's just impossible to understand how robust and overengineered they are relative to everything else street based. Oil temp basically doesn't move. With fluid & pads, the braking system works identically, every time. Throttle response never changes. The cooling across the board is supreme. The pdk doesn’t flinch, flat upshifts and rev matching are always metronomic in the manual, the 4.0 revs with the same urgency on day lap 1 or lap 40. Etc.
Driver & tires are the only variable factors, both of which will quit before the car reaches a concerning level of mechanical stress. The mechanical limitations of the car are so beyond the avg track day driver, it's like a joke. Provided the accordant maintenance history is there -- increased oil change frequency, spark plugs, ignition coils, braking system -- no worries buying a tracked GT car from a mechanical perspective. Cosmetic, that's another matter. No mistaking my GT cars for garage queens.
For those who don't have a history tracking 991/992 GT, taking them to extremes, it's just impossible to understand how robust and overengineered they are relative to everything else street based. Oil temp basically doesn't move. With fluid & pads, the braking system works identically, every time. Throttle response never changes. The cooling across the board is supreme. The pdk doesn’t flinch, flat upshifts and rev matching are always metronomic in the manual, the 4.0 revs with the same urgency on day lap 1 or lap 40. Etc.
Driver & tires are the only variable factors, both of which will quit before the car reaches a concerning level of mechanical stress. The mechanical limitations of the car are so beyond the avg track day driver, it's like a joke. Provided the accordant maintenance history is there -- increased oil change frequency, spark plugs, ignition coils, braking system -- no worries buying a tracked GT car from a mechanical perspective. Cosmetic, that's another matter. No mistaking my GT cars for garage queens.
10-06-2023, 10:02 AM
#8733
You own how many non-bulletproof Porsche GT cars at this point? And which cars in your collection do you track?
10-06-2023, 10:16 AM
#8734
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Ok... there are always exceptions. The 3.8's issues are well known. Trans failure may or may not have been correlated to tracking. Running pads low can accelerate wear of pucks. Throw some titanium in if you want to preempt.
You own how many non-bulletproof Porsche GT cars at this point? And which cars in your collection do you track?
You own how many non-bulletproof Porsche GT cars at this point? And which cars in your collection do you track?
981 GT4 didn’t have problems in 25k miles, but wife doesn’t drive as hard as I do. I’ve heard that others had transmission failures and I know of one that recently had an engine failure (not sure of details).
Our other two GT cars were recently acquired and will start tracking them soon.
I trust Porsche GT cars for the track more than anything else, but they’re not totally bulletproof if tracked really hard for a long time, even with proper maintenance. Good to have warranty.
10-06-2023, 10:39 AM
#8735
Sometimes every other car at the track is a Porsche GT. A small % of those will have problems.
Whereas almost every time I get into an alternative make at the track, it has problems, or we're negotiating around some mechanical limitation.
First paragraph above is based upon direct experience, over a decade tracking with alternative makes before GT3. Could have kept going. In 3+ years tracking 991.2's, including in fully stock form to start, not a hiccup.
Post was intended to give context and insight into why some track history with Porsche GT cars should not be interpreted in the same vein as alternative makes. A Porsche GT car is simply not as mechanically compromised by track days as other makes. There is a substantial difference in engineering, component durability, robustness. Like I said, the idea that the car is approaching concerning mechanical limitation with an avg track driver behind the wheel is laughable. For buyers to not recognize this as they consider cars is an error.
Plus, we all know your wife is faster than you, stop it.
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10-06-2023, 11:05 AM
#8736
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Yes of course.
Sometimes every other car at the track is a Porsche GT. A small % of those will have problems.
Whereas almost every time I get into an alternative make at the track, it has problems, or we're negotiating around some mechanical limitation.
First paragraph above is based upon direct experience, over a decade tracking with alternative makes before GT3. Could have kept going. In 3+ years tracking 991.2's, including in fully stock form to start, not a hiccup.
Post was intended to give context and insight into why some track history with Porsche GT cars should not be interpreted in the same vein as alternative makes. A Porsche GT car is simply not as mechanically compromised by track days as other makes. There is a substantial difference in engineering, component durability, robustness. Like I said, the idea that the car is approaching concerning mechanical limitation with an avg track driver behind the wheel is laughable. For buyers to not recognize this as they consider cars is an error.
Plus, we all know your wife is faster than you, stop it.
Sometimes every other car at the track is a Porsche GT. A small % of those will have problems.
Whereas almost every time I get into an alternative make at the track, it has problems, or we're negotiating around some mechanical limitation.
First paragraph above is based upon direct experience, over a decade tracking with alternative makes before GT3. Could have kept going. In 3+ years tracking 991.2's, including in fully stock form to start, not a hiccup.
Post was intended to give context and insight into why some track history with Porsche GT cars should not be interpreted in the same vein as alternative makes. A Porsche GT car is simply not as mechanically compromised by track days as other makes. There is a substantial difference in engineering, component durability, robustness. Like I said, the idea that the car is approaching concerning mechanical limitation with an avg track driver behind the wheel is laughable. For buyers to not recognize this as they consider cars is an error.
Plus, we all know your wife is faster than you, stop it.
but that wife comment was best I’ve heard in ages, too funny.
Last edited by Porsche444; 10-06-2023 at 11:33 AM.
10-06-2023, 11:15 AM
#8737
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Yes of course.
Sometimes every other car at the track is a Porsche GT. A small % of those will have problems.
Whereas almost every time I get into an alternative make at the track, it has problems, or we're negotiating around some mechanical limitation.
First paragraph above is based upon direct experience, over a decade tracking with alternative makes before GT3. Could have kept going. In 3+ years tracking 991.2's, including in fully stock form to start, not a hiccup.
Post was intended to give context and insight into why some track history with Porsche GT cars should not be interpreted in the same vein as alternative makes. A Porsche GT car is simply not as mechanically compromised by track days as other makes. There is a substantial difference in engineering, component durability, robustness. Like I said, the idea that the car is approaching concerning mechanical limitation with an avg track driver behind the wheel is laughable. For buyers to not recognize this as they consider cars is an error.
Plus, we all know your wife is faster than you, stop it.
Sometimes every other car at the track is a Porsche GT. A small % of those will have problems.
Whereas almost every time I get into an alternative make at the track, it has problems, or we're negotiating around some mechanical limitation.
First paragraph above is based upon direct experience, over a decade tracking with alternative makes before GT3. Could have kept going. In 3+ years tracking 991.2's, including in fully stock form to start, not a hiccup.
Post was intended to give context and insight into why some track history with Porsche GT cars should not be interpreted in the same vein as alternative makes. A Porsche GT car is simply not as mechanically compromised by track days as other makes. There is a substantial difference in engineering, component durability, robustness. Like I said, the idea that the car is approaching concerning mechanical limitation with an avg track driver behind the wheel is laughable. For buyers to not recognize this as they consider cars is an error.
Plus, we all know your wife is faster than you, stop it.
I will buy a lightly tracked Porsche GT car (I did - the 991.2 3RS), but would personally shy away from a heavily tracked one, especially outside warranty.
My wife is fast enough that I don’t like to ride with her. But not as fast as me - seems I have less fear of dying.
10-06-2023, 11:31 AM
#8739
Most excellent dude!!! I have been tracking for 5 years, everywhere from Laguna Seca to Chuckwalla and I just don’t see Porsche GT braking down, but other makes, bmw, etc, can’t say the same. Porsche is the most bulletproof track car in the market, hands down!!!
but that wide comment was best I’ve heard in ages, too funny.
but that wide comment was best I’ve heard in ages, too funny.
10-06-2023, 11:32 AM
#8740
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10-06-2023, 11:34 AM
#8741
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You have to have a history of tracking other makes to recognize the difference. Not saying this applies to Manifold, but some Porsche GT guys don't understand how incomparably solid these cars are, the modifications and reliability hurdles that go into tracking "performance" models from alternative brands. Caliper pucks getting brittle after years and dozens of track days (arguably a consumable), that'll be the least of your worries. You'll care more about the carbon ceramic discs that are toast after two track days, or the brake system overheating session 1 and your foot going to the floor even with race fluid & pads.
10-06-2023, 12:06 PM
#8742
We don't disagree, but that's not what I was suggesting. Every car can have problems. Point was interpretation of track days on a car, disqualifying or not. In the case of a Porsche GT and reasonable track use, it's highly unlikely to have been pushed to the point of mechanical concern by a previous owner, e.g., engine and/or transmission overheating. Most other makes, you cannot make that basic assumption.
10-06-2023, 01:44 PM
#8743
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We don't disagree, but that's not what I was suggesting. Every car can have problems. Point was interpretation of track days on a car, disqualifying or not. In the case of a Porsche GT and reasonable track use, it's highly unlikely to have been pushed to the point of mechanical concern by a previous owner, e.g., engine and/or transmission overheating. Most other makes, you cannot make that basic assumption.
10-06-2023, 01:58 PM
#8744
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10-06-2023, 02:26 PM
#8745
Yes, think that's fair. If the car was routinely driven at the limit on slicks, do think that adds a meaningful level of stress. Beyond counteracting with some more preventative maintenance? probably not.